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57 Climate Scientists Object After Biden Falsely Claims "Not a Single Solitary Scientist" Thinks Sanders' Green New Deal Can Work

You should go to the actual plan prior to spewing nonsense about how it’ll get paid for.


There’s an unfortunate whiff of victim-blaming in that assessment that ignores the role of mass-media advertising. We USAns are, without doubt, the most heavily propagandized and push-polled population ever to walk the Earth, and the bulk of the “information” we’re hosed down with is directed toward increasing our consumption–that, and conflating “freedom” with the ability to “roll coal” and to burn our monster tires down to their rims. Part of saving the planet will have to be changing the culture.


Victim-blaming? People who choose to follow the gasoline/diesel addiction program instead of choosing otherwise are NOT victims. They’re perpetrators.
They are brainwashed perhaps, but when you try to un-brainwash them, you’re likely to get shot or run over. For example, I cheerfully volunteered to rake and sweep for my neighbor so he wouldn’t use his 130 decibel leaf blower at 6 am. He got really angry, and told me he “loves” making the noise and he loves the gasoline smell. He’s not a victim, he’s a victimizer.
Americans worship their petroleum toys. When you try to excuse people’s bad behavior by blaming it on culture, you remove free will and personal responsibility, and could excuse almost ALL bad behavior using the same deflection.
I grew up in American culture, exposed to the same brainwashing as everyone else. Yet, I don’t participate in the gasoline/diesel addiction pasttimes.
Nobody else has to either. They chose to. They’re not victims. They’re willing participants in the killing of the biosphere, and they don’t give a shit.


You could decrease military spending to $0 and it wouldn’t come close to pay for Bernie’s GND plan (on top of all the other ones he’s proposing).

I never meant to suggest that changing the culture would be easy or without risk, merely that it’s a two-way street. Which do you think is the better way to achieve that transformation–calling people “dumbasses,” or leading by example?


Unsubstantiated rubbish.


We are all ad hoc now, i.e., making it up as we go, because this is The Anthropocene, and nobody has ever been here before.

Yea - that’s my feeling for sure. This isn’t working - try something else.

Rachel Maddow’s book “Drift” is superb on this. I just finished it actually - absolutely first rate. There’s massive inertia in or system now - all aspects, military, civilian infrastructure, suburbia, our mis-named economic system, dependence on oil and fossil fuels, leveraged to the hilt with super high tech everything, from just on time inventory management to a financial system which is totally dependent on massive and growing debt.

Yes - for sure ! It appears that only necessity can accomplish this transition. I don’t think we have long to wait.


You conveniently forget that the much of the costs will be paid to People who do the work. Good paying jobs also increase tax revenues. Combine that with badly needed infrastructure work, and we might actually have an economy that works for the people whom Big Business refuses to pay a decent salary!

Take your head out of the sand. To just blow off the whole concept because it is too expensive is idiocy. The alternative is the massive die-offs of people as well as the rest of nature. People like you should be first.


Joe’s political career has been based on the terror of incrementalism as he cut the throat of the working class. Unfortunately, his main support is about as senile as he and I. (declaimer, I am in my eighties and a Bernie nite). I have concern about Joe’s plan to put me on a cat food program by cutting my social security. However, the well being of my little great grand babies is foremost.


Ok. Let me substantiate it. Look up “US military budget.” We average around $600-$700 billion per year. That’s more than any other country, by far. But it’s nowhere near the $1.6 trillion annual spending Sanders’ plan presents. And that’s just the GND, not all of his new plans.

So there’s your evidence.

Yes, but unlike military spending, money invested in creating green energy will generate returns in the form of saleable energy after the first year. It is not a perpetual sinkhole for our cash.


Spending under the DoD budget grossly understates (by design) the US military’s actual total costs. For just one example, expenditures for US nuclear weapons programs are buried in the US Dept. of Energy budget. Nice sleight-of-hand. DoD’s figures also ignore the costs of borrowing to fund operations. Still awaiting an audit.


Same sentiment here. We always need higher goals than what may seem easy or doable. Take for instance the Department of Energy and their SunShot 2030 Initiative to reduce the total costs of solar energy by 75 percent. Not an easy lift but let’s at shoot for it!


Switzerland has a wealth tax and has had one since 1840. Are they failing miserably?

Norway has a wealth tax and most people in Norway pay some form of wealth tax. Are they failing miserably?

The reason Wealth Taxes difficult to implement is because the wealthy will then shelter their money in jurisdictions that do not have it. The USA has example is a haven for tax dodgers. If more Nations had wealth taxes it would be more difficult to avoid that tax. The main reason it “fails” is because not enough nations use it.

As to the costs of the Sanders green plan what you fail to do is recognize the costs of doing nothing. There are externalized costs of trillions of dollars that you fail to account for that are externalized by profit making industries. As example , dumping chemicals into a river is an externalized cost. If it costs 1 trillion dollars to clean up that river , this a cost that could have been avoided had the system ensured the polluter paid.

Last year in the USA alone there was some 60 billion dollars in direct costs due to Climate Change. This is ONLY direct damage and is a fraction of overall damages +remedial costs after the fact. There is a huge cost to doing nothing


enlighten yourself or leave Watch “The Game is Rigged” Richard North

ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhFMa4t28A


Sounds terrific, splendid beautiful. Do you know if these rules and regs have ever been implemented ?

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Biden is a suicidal Republican.
At this point, who would even consider attempting to sell "finding the Middle Ground" between A politicians 1% Donor buddies and Global Ecological Collapse ?

We will not survive THAT kind of thinking

Biden’s middle ground puts left on edge

On a side note - regarding Bidens Republican style thinking - Lets remember that we cannot make a cruse missile without parts from CHINA. Biden has been part of making THAT a reality. National Security anyone?



US Military spending is over 1 trillion a year. They hide costs via accounting gimmicks and shoveling costs to other departments.

There is also ROI to consider. All Government spending generates a add to economic activity. When Eisenhower had all of that highway infrastructure built , one could not just look at the costs and conclude it wasted money. Those spending programs generated returns to the economy. Every dollar spent on infrastructure generates close to 4 times that in added economic activity . This number is several times higher then amounts spent on the military. You build a bomb and drop it the bomb is gone and has to be replaced and generates nothing for the US economy. You invest in infrastructure and returns to the economy last many decades.


I have some experience with neighbors who feel entitled to invade my home with their smog pollution and noise pollution. One came to my house to threaten my family because he wrongly believed I’d reported him to the county for some violation. My farrier told me she had a neighbor who fired his guns over the heads of her horses, and she can’t legally do anything unless he hits one. I find these types of lunatics incredibly loathsome. They definitely have something wrong with them. Brainwashing is probably only one of many things wrong with them. And trying to de-program people just makes them mad.

Still, the power of propaganda is very strong. If we were able to stop all propaganda, would every victim of it come to their senses? Probably not. Hopefully some would. I try to be charitable when there’s uncertainty about how committed someone is to their assholery. Caitlin Johnstone had some interesting articles comparing the propaganda from the oligarchy to the personal propaganda of domestic abusers. People can be both victims and abusers, and often are.

How did you and I see through the propaganda? Odds are, we haven’t entirely. I keep discovering new things to un-learn. I’ve noticed that people who see through propaganda often have the benefit of the perspective of an outsider to start with. People who can’t fit in because our culture treats them badly.


Heck, just our military subsidizing of multinational Gas & Oil conglomerates burns more carbon than most countries, just to go & steal more fossil-fuel. NYC’s greenwashed conversion to fracked PA methane, to shift DNC’s superdeligates’ carbon footprints involves locking us into gas infrastructure which will doom any surviving grandkids into cleaning up tens-of-thousands of radium & carcinogen spewing abandoned wells, as the country neglects changeover to renewables Carter tried to implement, 40yrs back (when we had the market all to ourselves). Bloomberg, Bezos, Gates, etc. simply want to sell us geo-engineering, GE monoculture extractive agriculture and carbon capture scams; as they cash in on Catastrophe Capitalism foretold we before Naomi Klein. Now, Energy In Depth can set up scores of .org sites to spew lies about the incredible failure rate of casing, cement-jobs and poisoing of aquifers, wells, waterways and crops irrigated with lethal, radioactive fracking brine, sprayed on roads, dumped or watered-down & gavaged via rusty pipe to our children.