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After Paris Attacks, Critics Warn Against 'Wars of Vengeance'

Insulting me takes little effort nor rational thought Chicken. There have been others who do so it much better. But back on the topic, Paul Woodward, editor over at "WarinContext.org IMHO makes a valid point about “Parochialism and Internationalism on the Left.” in relationship to the issue of exactly my point even if it takes just a bit off effort to read.

"So, Chomsky, Greenwald, and others like them, focus their ire on the crimes of the U.S. government because of the “anticipated and predictable consequences” of their denunciations.

But moral crusaders of this variety surely don’t measure the effectiveness of their political activism by the degree to which they influence the behavior of the U.S. military or the formulation of foreign policy in Washington.

On the contrary, having an impact has much more to do with having the capacity to stir up popular outrage and rally like-minded followers. By that measure, Chomsky’s impact has indeed been measurable and he has served America for decades by mobilizing dissent.

When it comes to events such as the attack on a hospital in Kunduz, I would venture that the protests coming from Médecins Sans Frontières may have had some impact in the corridors of power, while Greenwald’s probably had none.

Do voices of dissent such as his have much impact outside the ranks of America’s stalwart critics? Do predictable denunciations of America’s crimes actually have any effect in reducing this criminality?

I would argue that both Chomsky and Greenwald need to have some modesty about the scope of their influence. Their greatest impact, far outside Washington, is on people who hang on their every word.

When it comes to this audience they should really be asking whether they are in fact raising awareness and promoting critical thinking, or, on the contrary, shepherding a flock of believers who happily echo their thought-leaders?

Can these forms of dissent serve as catalysts of constructive change, or do they instead tend to reinforce an anti-imperialist form of conservatism which narrows thought and fosters parochialism?

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Regarding insults, you are not on any high ground other than what you imagine. Your original post in this thread was absolutely an attack, and a broad based insult that those on the left who call out US crimes against humanity look the other way when a group such as ISIS takes part in same.

You preface this attack of others on this forum, by the most tired rhetorical tack in the book, to preemptively characterize any defense against your attack as intolerance.

Try harder with your pimping for Empire, because that kind of subterfuge doesn’t fly with this chicken. Cluck cluck cluck, burp.

You don’t really want to know the truth about ISIS. If US foreign policy is directly and indirectly responsible for its emergence and expansion then that doesn’t concern you whatsoever apparently.

No, your main concern is to corral and shame that pesky left that asks too many damn questions.

You don’t live in the real world, you have chosen a particular world that just happens to align with the a very dark power paradigm that has emerged. You have a lot to answer for in such an alliance.


From the word I mentioned, " Blowback ", I don’t know where you came up with the idea it has something to do with Greenwald or Snowden.
The “Blowback” I refer to is from a book called " Blowback , The Costs and Consequences of American Empire " written by Chalmers Johnson some 15 years ago.

Damn oood answer!

US especially, but also other western nations need to learn to mind our own business and avoid picking fights with others. Better we should pay Dane geld to fossil fuel firms (by taxing emissions and using tax to buy fossil fuel as mineral rights fro our too big to fail fossil fuel firms, than we should get in a big fight with them over letting renewable energy take over our energy sector!


My most humble apology Rudyjo I misplaced the article using your screen name. However, I would disagree that the horror that took place in Paris is completely the result of “Blowback” as Johnson posited against the American"Empire" considering some of those attacking were French citizens attacking their nation.

Chicken, I’ve been a member of the “left” years prior to your you birth. But rather than spouting the same old rhetoric, tend to actually read opinion of others and choose to share some I consider valid for those who read. What has become apparent in this “conversation?” is as suggested in the quote by Woodward, you
instead spout the words of others with little thought if any at all.

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All these kinds of wars are “wars of vengeance” presented and spun to the populace as “necessary defense of our national security” and who has ever had sufficient access to the public’s ear to say otherwise and be heard and stand up to being accused of being an unpatriotic coward.

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Rudyjo, I would suggest as Margolis did in his article also published here on CD. He makes the point I attempted to far better than I could.

"France is a prime target because of its extensive and deepening military interventions in the Muslim world. Some 10,000 French soldiers or airmen and large numbers of intelligence operatives are involved in Syria, Iraq, the Gulf, Libya, Chad, Mali and Ivory Coast. France props up the authoritarian rulers of Algeria and Morocco.

France is playing a central role in its former colonies, Syria and Lebanon. Paris appears to have long-range plans for expanding its influence in the Levant, including installing regimes attuned to French policies.

French warplanes are bombing Syria and this writer believes French special forces have been in combat in Syria, as they were in Libya when the western powers combined to overthrow the Khadaffi government.

In short, France has made many enemies for itself across the Mideast. It appears only a matter of time before France’s partners in Mideast intervention, the United States and Britain, become new targets of jihadist violence."

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Cui bono? Thanks for asking. It’s becoming my favorite question.

Let’s also talk about the West’s indiscriminate bombing of civilians in the Middle East.

Our expectation that civilians in the West are not valid targets would be less
hypocritical if we didn’t routinely hit civilian targets in the Middle East, and other regions.

This perpetual war thing coupled with the indiscriminate bombing creates far more enemies and problems than it solves, but I guess if you are making money building weapons you really don’t give a shit.

U.S. Vows to Bomb More Civilian Targets After Paris Attacks


He stated clearly that he was expecting that. If he’s complaining he’s not complaining very loudly. He seems pretty calm to me.

Really your link lol is the gospel truth?


The Nil Admirari is spurious news.

Satirical Political News with a Progressive Slant.

“America’s Most Swell News Source” of the Liberal and Mock Variety.

Please! Paper personal effects are found at all plane crash sites - even the most violent ones. Numerous poeple got personal effects of comparable durability as a passport of their dead relatives on ll of the four flights - even the Pennsylvania site. Obviously, a lot of materials gets thrown from a plane impact site before the subsequent fire can burn them.

I myself, as a high school kid, went out after school once and visited a plane crash site of comparable violence in Virginia (TWA flight 514 - look it up) a few weeks after it happened and found a lot of paper personal effects among the gory things the recovery crews failed to pick up - including a the wallet of a woman victim with her drivers license.

Oh, and it was the passport of Satam Al Suqami, not Atta.

I am getting really, really tired at the scientific ignorance behind this “911 was an inside job” nonsense. Please go and find company among the equally idiotic global warming denialists.


Your post makes sense until the last paragraph when you use a fake news source as support for your points. The fact that Obama would never use those words to describe US policy, doesn’t make the underlying reality false. The question has to be considered as to whether you did this unwittingly or deliberately as a tactic to undermine the validity of your earlier points. Would you care to clarify?

You have no idea of the date of my birth, or my intellectual and experiential path that makes me a keen observer of deceit when I see it.

You take a position that vilifies those fighting against the darkest forces of our times. The forces that use deceit, death, and destruction to make a fucking buck, or just for the utter joy of participating in some blood cult.

You have apparently traversed some path from the left to the far right as you parrot tired old accusations that the left only sees the evils of the US, and not the evils of ISIS et al.

Engage me on this debate, and I will eat your rhetorical lunch.

I have pointedly challenged you as to whether or not you are interested in the truth about the rise of ISIS relative to US foreign policy, and you have yet to go on the record in that regard.

You however are quite willing to go on the record casting those such as myself, as people who look the other way when brutal acts of terror occur because according to your argument we are taken in by some sort of celebrity worship of Greenwald, Snowden, Chomsky, et al.

I will have you know, that I have a shrine with a portrait of Chris Hedges lit by an eternal flame, and I spend hours upon hours studiously pouring over each and every word of my master. I eat Hedges, I sleep Hedges, I masturbate Hedges, I pretend I have lunches with Hedges as I have made a life size Hedges doll that I prop up at my dining room table and we have lovely chats over vegetarian cuisine.

Cluck cluck burp.


True, the Fourth Estate are really the unpatriotic cowards posing as fair, unbiased and patriotic news and are really sycohphants for the Oligarchs, war profiteers and war mongers.

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These are indestructible passports which immediately show up when you want them. Not like ordinary passports that disappear especially when you’re keeping them safe. Also it would be good if I could have a car or computer built out of these indestructible passports…


“Those who wish to make this discussion murky, who equivocate and obfuscate and fail to make important distinctions between the light that shines in places like Paris (where secular humanism is socially and politically dominant) and places like those regions of Iraq and Syria dominated by ISIS (where people oppression and hatred is cloaked in perversions of religious texts). We can disagree about how best to fight against the darkness, but I surely hope that even the most confused “progressives” would agree that such darkness should be resisted by people of good will throughout the world. The terrorists who struck the office of Charlie Hebdo less than a year ago, and the terrorists who killed and wounded nearly 500 people on the streets and bistros of Paris last Friday are not fighting for freedom. They offer no light. They are the apostles of death, and the world must purge itself of the life-denying disease of such fascism, whether it manifests itself with trappings of religion or decked out in the uniforms of storm troopers.”


The above quote was what I responded to, as it was obviously lifted from the essay as the most essential point that sanne80 was making in this forum.

He/she prefaced the quote with a preemptive attack on those on the forum who according to sanne80

“never see anything, but evil emanating always from our nation”.

Oh yes Matt, all of us who consistently fight against Empire, including Snowden, Greenwald, et al are people who might be "confused’ as to whether such barbarism should be resisted.

That post was meant as a base attack against the goodwill of most who come to this forum, and here you are attacking me for wielding a defense.

I’m quite aware of the brutality of ISIS, and I’m equally aware that US foreign policy has directly and indirectly through its allies, created and funded this group.

That fact is one that sanne80 wants to sweep under the rug as he attacks those on the pesky left that go after such truths.

As to your personal attack against me regarding my contribution to this forum, I suggest if you have such a problem with it that you take it to CD for resolution. You have no high ground in this regard however, so you might keep that in mind.