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At Second Debate, A Monster Calls


At Second Debate, A Monster Calls

Michael Winship

If there was the tiniest doubt left in your mind that Donald Trump holds no regard for the principles and ideals of a representative democracy — or that he views this country as anything more than a podium for his grandstanding ego, base dictatorial instincts and gutter mentality – Sunday night’s debate should have shot that shred of doubt straight to hell.


They are both monsters. We wouldn't have one without the other.


Stein: this so-called debate is a sad commentary on what our political system has become


"But the Republican Party? You brought this on yourselves, boys and girls." No, the Democratic brought this on us. They sold out the working class long ago.


Yes, Trump is a monster and it's horrifying that millions still support him. Many see Hillary as too militaristic. That is a real and debatable point. Some complain that Hillary was too moderate, or even right of center, and her move left on many issues is perhaps more calculated than real. I can only say that I myself have slowly moved more and more leftward over the decades. I believe Hillary is a decent person, flawed like all of us. She has had to fight the right-wing hate machine for decades. I feel good supporting her.


"Near-death experience" indeed -- but one that has been brought into being, and exacerbated by both of these golems. IMO, we need to have that conversation before we elect either of these narcissists.

STEIN/BARAKA 2016 (b4 this country becomes irredeemable)!


Excellent article! "The verdict: a vote for Clinton is a vote for Trump." Strange how this actually works -- to those who keep insisting that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump -- they are nothing more than the 'pot calling the kettle black!' http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/11/elevating-trump/ [just so readers here realize that I didn't say that!] And this needs to be shouted from the rooftops b4 November 8!



But nothing in that hour-and-a-half knocked him out either.

And this is the saddest thing of all. That the Democratic candidate for President hasn't buried this buffoon long ago.


The "bury him" thing is most difficult. There are a lot of ugly-minded people in America. The right-wing hate machine makes things worse both by legitimizing this ugly evil and by endlessly throwing crap at prominent democrats. The mainstream media helps legitimize this crap by reporting allegations and false equivalence. Republican legislators and wanna-bes push crap endlessly because they have to in order to succeed in their disgusting environment. Zombies are in our midst and will be for a long time to come.


Michael none of what you said makes Hillary Clinton any more acceptable or hopeful. Since this latest brouhaha concerns male sexism and I am just a man, I'll let my wife's remarks speak for me. I couldn't force myself to watch it, though I did overhear most of it, but my wife did courageously soldier on. When it was over her only remark was: "Neither of them said anything that would make me want to support either of them." My entire family - parents, siblings, and children - have been almost uniformly Democratic voters. This past weekend at an (in-law) family gathering, my wife who is usually very cautious and tight-lipped finally said that she will probably not vote for POTUS this time around. I had been wondering, and now I know. By the way, she is a professional woman who has worked our entire 36 yrs together, at the top of her field, and has had to deal with unequal pay, not only for herself but for her female subordinates, and has had the responsibility of trying to deal with the disruptive effects of sex in the workplace, and male personalities and behaviors similar to Trump's.


Trump is a mess, no doubt, but just as he is the face of the Republican party as it is today, Hillary is the true face of the Democratic party.

"Hurricane Donald has devastated America, tearing us from our foundations and moorings, creating havoc and letting loose the wolves of prejudice, hate, fear and greed."
I usually appreciate Mr. Winship's work but this is really a bit over the top with the "fear Trump" crap.
The traits Donald screams out to us are very much the veiled traits of the party. He is just louder and more crude. Prejudice, hate, fear and greed are trade marks of the American way, the Donald didn't create them he uses them. Just like Clinton is the epitome of the corporate greed, triangulating, cheating, war loving, corporate serving Democrats.
What we are seeing is the very worst of the worst. Maybe we needed this big dose of what we have allowed our government to become. Voting for someone who shares your values is great but Americans need to work harder to get involved in our democracy (whats left) and push for what's right. An election won't do it.
In the mean time vote Jill Stein for sanity.


This happened because the R's have sought vengeance since Watergate. Their lust for the seats of power (note especially how they've said Scalia's seat is THEIR seat) all stems from their vengeance. AND you should expect Clinton impeachment proceedings to begin in January. Vengeance. The circus ain't over because the scary clowns are yet to come.

Meanwhile--it has been asked, could Bill Clinton have been elected under the present moral rigor? Answer: no.

Thus far, the historians have it wrong. The 2000 Green vote for Ralph Nader did NOT cost Al Gore the White House; Bill Clinton's Lewinsky scandal did. How was Al Gore supposed to run on Clinton's record?? Really?? Gore avoided using Clinton on the campaign trail. Historians need to uncover the Gore campaign team's thinking on this.


For those that are interested and concerned: I posted a comment to the Stephen Zunes article that challenged his piece, and just now as I tried to return there I got a page that told me that access is denied - I do not have permission to view that page.

Lovely. Should I say good-by now, before I am completely banned?


My comment was not offensive in tone, was not anti-Semitic, and directly addressed the false equivalencies put forth by the author.


That's OK. Many of my comments are strongly worded and I do have the unfortunate habit of including profanity, but that was not the case this time. I've been on this site since before there was a forum and I know that with the exception of discussions concerning religion there is no topic so fraught with vitriol and hatred as Israel and Palestine. Remember ham, bacon, eggs?


Yes, that is the one.


When you bring Steve Bannon from Breitbart in to run a campaign this is what you would expect. Trump's performance was a statement from the Alt-right. Basically it was saying this is who we are and we aren't going away. It is the Republican Party that will have to deal directly with the Breitbart crowd, probably led by Trump, during the next few years. If the Republican establishment can prevail this threat should be reduced. However, if the Breitbart people manage to take control of the Republican Party the country will indeed be in dire trouble (although establishment Republicans themselves are great cause for concern). What may save us is the demographic trend. With a growing minority vote it would seem that Breitbart candidates in elections will have difficulty winning in an increasing number of places.


First.....Vote for Stein.
But...........Trump, although a lunatic, has split the Republican Party in half. That's a good thing.
Trump has exposed the corporate media, the Democratic Party, and Hillary as the corrupt liars that they truly are. That's a good thing.
Trump has also shown the American people, at least those who can focus on serious topics for more then 30 seconds, that our federal government (both parties) is nothing more than a propaganda machine used by the neocon, neoliberal, warmongers to start wars.
And that's a good thing.

So as bad as Trump is, and he is the worst, at least he exposed the underbelly of the beast. Something that Hillary wanted to keep hidden from our eyes and our ears for infinity.
So there is a silver lining in every cloud.


I'm a political junkie; she is not. She is very practical and pragmatic, and though she is not prone to say things she does not truly mean, I don't know what choice she will make in that moment in the privacy of the voting booth. Such are the times in which we live.


Glenn Beck supports Hillary.
Enough said.