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Bernie Sanders Claps Back After Liz Cheney, Daughter of Bush VP, Attacks 'Fraud of Socialism' on House Floor


#1

Bernie Sanders Claps Back After Liz Cheney, Daughter of Bush VP, Attacks 'Fraud of Socialism' on House Floor

Jessica Corbett, staff writer

After Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wy.)—daughter of the notorious warmonger former Vice President Dick Cheney—attacked "the fraud of socialism" in a "Trumpism-inflected" speech on the U.S. House floor on Thursday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) clapped back with a reference to what has been called her father's "biggest lie."


#2

Liz Cheney, another brain-dead tool who wouldn’t know socialism from a dodo or a saber tooth tiger. Liz, do you realize there is such a thing as socialism in America right now? That we actually subsidize the rich (your class) on a day-by-nauseating-day basis? Military? Big oil? Big ag? Are you then surprised that we intend to subsidize in favor of people who are in NEED for a change? Guess not. But hey, the U.S. is a great country. In any other functioning democracy, you would be visiting your dad in jail.


#3

Bernie’s retort was polite.

At least compared to Rashida Tlaib’s salty-as-hell call for Trump’s impeachment. I dig it:


#4

Enough said!


#5

Socialism has nothing to do with state ownership of anything. Liz Cheney is confusing State Capitalism (as practiced in the Soviet Union) with Socialism. State Capitalism is “state ownership of the means of production”. Socialism is “worker control of the means of production”


#6

Socialism is democracy and democracy is socialism - you cannot have one without the other. Anything else is a fraud. The last real socialist government we had in Britain was that of Clem Attlee from 1945 to 1951. Since then, the tories and their capitalist cronies have been trying to destroy everything that the socialism of that time set up. They haven’t quite succeeded, as yet, so there is hope and for the US to have that hope they need to support Bernie Sanders as a man of the people who supports a regime that governs for the many and not just for the few.


#7

This may comport with the technical academic definitions, but I have a personal definition I like to use – one based on a more pragmatic application of these concepts.

For me, socialism is the concept of sharing the cost of benefits among society when the benefits are sufficiently broad, that is they inure to a wide swath of society, and the cost of delivering those benefits is lower than other alternatives. That is, when the good or service is sufficiently imbued, or as some statues put it “affected,” with the public interest and the method of its acquisition and delivery is less costly than, say, a profit-based system, then we should socialize that good or service, or, if more costly, that such additional cost is worth the avoidance of adverse events or risks that would be present in its absence.

We already apply this concept to some of our infrastructure, like roads, fire and police services and, often, water acquisition, processing and delivery, sewage service, trash service and others services.

It is clear this concept should be expanded to include health insurance, but not necessarily health care delivery. And to pharmaceutical development, production and probably delivery (or at least the pricing thereof). And to our collective response to the climate crisis and to the homeless crisis and many other unmet social needs. I suppose I agree with the notion of worker control of the means of production, but only in the sense that it is carried out through a collective system – i.e. an uncorrupted governmental system – when these notions of being affected with the public interest and of the economies of scale, including an assessment of the avoided risks, that follow from that are met.


#8

Liz is one of them female republican loons like Michele Bachman or Sara Palin…They dont know shit from apple butter, all they know is it tastes yummy.


#9

The issue isn’t capitalism vs socialism, it is that a political party refuses to admit their obligation to all Americans. They yell and holler about that which gives them great power, with their manipulations of tax and policy, without regard to damages done and opportunities missed for too many Americans. There are many ways to merge capitalism and socialism, once you get around the republican scam.


#10

Just as Dubya was Cheney’s puppet for 8 years, Liz and others continue to be his puppets.


#11

what’s “the son of eli sanders” sopposed to mean?


#13

The Cheneys , the Bushes, the Clintons, crooks, liars and scum.


#14

Here we Americans go again! We are so afraid of mere words like socialism, but explain this, the Russians once called the Soviet Union, the United Soviet Socialist Republic, which was actually not communist or socialist at all but a false pseudo communist state, and not a real socialist republic either, because other than having universal health care, Russian style fake communism didn’t do much to actually help the poor Russian people or do anything much to increase their freedom or prosperity, but instead robbed them of these things, and so really was primarily a totalitarian state that favored and enriched only the wealthy party elites, and then mercilessly persecuted and imprisoned anyone who complained about it, and then at the very same time the German Nazis called themselves socialists but that was just a scam to sucker in the German people with promises of health care and better schools and such and used to cover up for Hitler’s real fascism, and griftng as he robbed the German people to live high on the hog on publically funded millionaire estates, and Nazi Germany was really a totalitarian fascist dictatorship, and not truly socialist at all.

In fact it’s hard to tell the Russian so called communists apart from the Nazi Germans, they were both dictatorships that persecuted, robbed, exploited, and falsely imprisoned their citizens, took away their freedoms, and threatened world peace and security, and catered to wealthy elites, and we are not all that far behind them, especially lately! Then we have European socialism like that happens in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and other parts of Europe and it works very well, and all of these countries are all still thriving peaceful democracies. So what does socialism really mean? Well it can mean many different things to different people, and this makes it a very divisive and contentious word, especially here in America where we have been thoroughly brainwashed and conditioned to see socialism to be considered almost the same as communism.

However, I see socialism as meaning doing things that are best for everyone or at least for the majority of all the people, doing what is best for every member of our society, and what is best for our commons, or commonwealth, like universal health care, good public schools, clean air, clean water, and clean land, public parks, public utilities, public transportation, interstate highways, etc., and making good public policies that create better freedom and justice for all, now doesn’t that sound like what our democracy was really meant to do anyway?

So why get so hung up on only a word? I don’t care what we call it as long as it works and everyone has all the health care that we need without having to go bankrupt, and that we protect the environment that all life depends upon, and that we have truly free and fair elections, a government that is truly responsible and is responsive to the people, and that provides every American citizen with an adequate education and job training to become productive members of society, and that our government creates public policies that are good for all of the American people, not just the wealthy and giant corporations, and those with political pull, and makes a system that ensures that our government does it’s job to provide for real frredom and justice for all, and for the public welfare of our entire country, which ought to be job number one of any good government.

A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet, so who cares if it is called democratic socialism, or universal single payer health care, or addressing climate change and cleaning up toxic pollution, or public education? It doesn’t matter to me if a democrat or a Republican, or a democratic socialist, or a member of the Green Party proposes positive changes as long as those changes would be good and in the best interest of all or at least the majority of Americans. If it’s a good idea then let’s try it. If we don’t like it, as long as we still live in a democracy, then we can undo it, and try something else. That is the real beauty of our democratic system! And yet it appears that ever more and more that republicans no longer want to be a part of our democratic system, and want instead to insist upon having only their own way and say to hell with the rest of the majority of the American people. They appear to want to destroy our democratic government, a government that they appear to hate, to rewrite our Constitution, and to force their own Constitution on all Americans, even if they must do this by fraud or deception, and even if this goes against the collective will of the majority, and then to turn America into a dictatorship run only by themselves, for only themselves, exactly the same way that Russia, Nazi Germany, North Korea, and other tyrannical dictatorships still operate today. No wonder that so many Republicans like and admire Vladimir Putin! Bernie isn’t calling to abolish our democracy or to create a totalitarian socialist or communist state or anything for goodness sake! If anyone is really trying to do just that it is at least some republicans! You would think that destroying our democracy and trying to turn America into a communist or socialist dictatorship was what Bernie was really trying to do from the way these republicans act when this couldn’t be further from the truth! Bernie is a true American patriot who wants to preserve and protect our democratic republic! These republicans just want to keep on profiting off of for profit medicine, and for profit prisons, and other evil things, which have been allowed to bankrupt, poison, and kill American citizens and our veterans for far too long. These right wing Republican greedy gravy trains must end. Talk about welfare queens! Many, but not all of these rich guys and their wealthy corporations subvert our democratic government every way that they can, which is why they say “government is the problem,” because good government gets in the way of their greedy graft and corruption, and so they use corruption to create more corruption, and bought and paid for members of government to force taxpayers to give them subsidies, even when it is not in our country’s best interest, and many of them pay no taxes at all, and those wealthy folks who live off of their investments pay 14 percent income tax, while working folks pay 28 percent! We are taxing those who work the hardest to death and allowing the idle rich to get welfare, paid for by the very workers whom they exploit.

What makes me wonder is why more democrats and those who are supposed to be radical far left crazies, according to republican fascist robber barons, never talk much about any of this! Part of the problem is our right wing and corporate controlled media, so much for freedom of the press and freedom of speech! It’s not conservative ideas that are being suppressed at all it has always been the insurgent left that has had their freedom giving and democratic ideas on behalf of the majority of working and ordinary Americans who have had their voices silenced, and for far too long! It’s only been lately, after forty years of wasted time, that the so callled liberal MSM has even just begun to mention climate change or to ever address pollution in any real way despite the severe seriousness of these issues to the lives and health of millions of ordinary Americans. They just put on pieces about Madonna or Beyoncé or some celebrity instead when they run out of things they are allowed by corporate controlled media to talk about. There is plenty of money to put out lies in the media, but next to no money to put out the truth, and it’s getting worse every day!

At least Bernie does talk about income inequality, and that is exactly why these republicans attack him mercilessly, because Bernie is telling the truth, and he is right, and so therefore he threatens to end the massive welfare free lunch that the excessively wealthy welfare kings and queens of America’s one percent have been living high on the hog off of for hundreds of years. Of course they won’t like it and will oppose it with all that they are worth. Perhaps they might even actually have to go to work to earn their living from now on, how horrible! Trying to end this outrage is seen as if it is tyranny to them, when it is really just an attempt at restoring justice for all, just like straight white males all of a sudden feel discriminated against when they have to compete for jobs on a level playing field with women, gays, and people of color and are no longer allowed to exercise white male privilege. Yes, fairness and equality does feel like discrimination and injustice to those who have become accustomed to always having their own way. Every spoiled brat will rebel when he is finally forced to behave himself, but that doesn’t justify keeping him spoiled, especially when he is out of control and causing great harm and death to other innocent people and is even a threat to the health of the entire ecosystem and threatens the very survival of all life on earth! This tyranny and evil state of affairs has gone too far and must be stopped at all costs, this time it’s a matter of survival, and life and death, and not just justice. Therefore, we Americans need to educate ourselves on these issues and stop allowing lying right wing media to manipulate us with half truths and lies, fear mongering, scapegoating, bigotry, and projection, black and white thinking, false narratives, bad research, statistics taken out of context, and brainwashing propaganda repeated over and over. We can never trust anyone who repeatedly lies to us, as Christ said that all lies come from the evil one, so we must work diligently to avoid lies and find out the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and then let truth, and brotherly love guide our lives and our public policies, as truth and love are the weapons of the true God who is good, and Jesus Christ who is the Good Shepherd who will never lead us astray.


#15

“Socialism” is a funny word, not funny ha-ha but funny strange. REALLY strange. There are probably more definitions of socialism than there are people who identify as socialists at any given time. I once had a neat little book that presented a dozen or two of them. That confirmed my own observation, so I passed it along.

To the best of my knowledge, the classical definition of socialism from its early days in the late 18th and early 19th centuries (with earlier precursors) has been worker ownership of the means of production. Marx certainly used it in that sense, and so did the founders of the first country to claim to be “Marxist” (which Marx himself said he was not).

But of course those founders had a pre-industrial country full of hungry people, with all of the capitalist nations pointing guns at them, and many conflicting ideas of how to bring that workers’ paradise about. The ones who survived the factional infighting had little choice but to declare themselves to be the rightful proxies for “The People” and thus the managers of all of The People’s resources: state capitalism lacking anyone with a scintilla of knowledge of how to run such an enterprise.

In the meantime, numerous others had developed a spectrum of variations on the notion of a democratically governed industrial society. Many are now merely academic, others historic, others forgotten. There are plenty of books. . . . One characteristic they all have in common is a recognition of the existence of a “common good” which is to be nurtured, precisely the “general welfare” mentioned in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution as a part of what it was “ordained and established” to promote. In contrast, capitalism boldly asserts that the common good CANNOT be promoted except by individuals pursuing nothing but their own, personal PRIVATE good.*

There has never been a purely socialist society or a purely capitalist one, nor is such an arrangement possible. Markets perform some tasks pretty well given certain constraints, but totally suck at others (such as public health). Ironically, socialism designates certain tasks (such as public health) as “natural monopolies” to be managed not by private interests but by scrupulously regulated bureaucracies responsible directly to the body politic for promoting the common good.

The classical ideal of mainstream economics (“neo-classical,” or “new-old”) is the dogma that markets are “self regulating” so need no bureaucracies to regulate them. It’s true, if the definition of “self regulating” includes schizophrenic and bipolar swings that create catastrophic havoc. Otherwise, if you believe markets are self-regulating in a way that promotes the general welfare, I have some lovely ocean-front property in northwest Georgia that I will sell you at a price you cannot afford to turn down. It isn’t ocean-front yet, but it will be by the time you get there.

*(Adam Smith, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of The Wealth Of Nations, Book IV, Chapter ii; p. 485 in the popular edition by Edward Cannan.)


#16

Thank you. I have told people for decades that calling the soviets communists is totally false.
We got hung up on a word because there was a massive attempt even before I was born to make socialism/communism 4 letter words. When I was growing up all I heard was that they were evil. Then I was educated and saw that there was nothing but lies.
When workers in the US first tried to organize, it was white males only. And they failed. They were forced to accept blacks and communists into their ranks. Only then were they able to be successful. And unions became hated. Thus they had to be destroyed. Of course even if that hadn’t happen, the masters would still have to destroy them, but it gave them more of an excuse.
While they don’t want to admit it completely, the right wing christians have been focused on taking over the government and changing it to a theocracy. They want everyone to live to their ‘moral’ code.
It isn’t Bernie or the so called socialists who are the danger. We want a democracy, but one that is for all not for the few. They want the few to have all the power. They need to be led. It’s why they admire Putin.


#17

I believe your definition of socialism is essentially what most people calling themselves “socialists” mean by it.


#18

See my reply to Pookie, above. After all, Jesus’s disciples went Commie! If -ism means belief in or worship of something, I’ll take community over capital any day.


#19

Ah Liz, a chip off the old turd. Please Liz, encourage you’re father to travel, see the world.


#20

Liz Cheney and her ilk are hiding behind a philosophical position which will give them some cover for being able to steal the fruits of people‘s labor. How could anyone become super rich? How can top executives make 400 or 600 times the amount of their lowest paid worker and also get year end bonuses of millions? Capitalism at that level is a scam. Workers are held hostage to Capitalism. Individuals must work to survive. We have no real choice but to accept the terms of a job and feel grateful to have a job.
Entrepreneurship is extremely risky. One must have some ‘capital‘ to start up. Most start ups fail unless extremely well capitalized.
The Republicans try to convince us that Capitalism is good for workers and many workers who would like to be rich think that by supporting Republican politicians some miracle will occur and the impossible will become possible.
There is just so much of the pie. If the few take way more than their share, what is left for the workers who make the pie? They must be satisfied with a tiny piece.
Capitalism enriches those who have. The solution is to put fmuch higher taxes on high income people. Those CEO millionaires might prefer to pay a fair wage to their workers and take home a reasonable salary for themselves and not pay higher taxes. We would not have to get all bent out of shape over the word, ‘socialism’ if we just called it by another name, ‘Fairness-ism’ or ‘Respectful-ism’. There is one thing that causes poverty. It is Capitalism or ‘Unfairness-ism’.


#21

How did this Witch with a capital B get elected? Just what kind of moron, lacking in even basic morals and ethics vote for the prodigy of a monster? They did though and they should be criticized for their lack of simple decency! Sometimes I wonder at the stupidity of certain state voters. Are they rejects from the holes under rocks?