Sorry there @dpearl, didn’t see your reference to the new party before I posted above.
I think that the debate last night was totally fitting. It is a good representation of everything the media and that party wanted. For months and months they pushed Biden’s zombie campaign forward, they wanted someone that was “normal”, wouldn’t rock the boat of change anything. They were totally unconcerned about his corruption, his horrible record, his clear cognitive decline (as bad as Biden’s record and corruption are, the Biden of ten years ago would have done much better last night versus Trump), among other things. The media, the donors, the lobbyists, the DNC, Obama and the Clintons, this is the person they wanted to face off versus that childish, dumb, ignorant fascist. The entirety of the debate was embarrassing, jarring, and really brought home how screwed we are. Trump must lose, but lets be honest about what it means if Biden wins. Fascism will not go away, it will not we weakened. Material conditions will likely worsen, because we do need radical changes that he is opposed to and anything short of that will cement a context for fascism to grow. People will be worse off, will feel more alienated from the political system, and the environmental crisis is racing towards us. When that hits, if our society is in this shape, we will not avoid fascism. It will at that point be impossible to avoid, since we will in fact need strong state intervention and the right will see the need for this. It will just be a brutal, authoritarian state.
Beyond that, it also drives home what a disservice Bernie did in not going after Biden and not fighting. He let the country down, not just the working and poor people that needed him to fight. Biden should not be the nominee, and his corruption and record are damning. Bernie should have thought of Biden sharing the stage with Trump, being the person to go up against him, and it should have motivated him to put his feelings towards Biden or being viewed as another Nader aside. He was the best person to go against Trump (not saying he was sure to win, neither is Biden), and we need to change the trajectory of the country immediately. We will not with Biden, and that will ultimately doom us. We may beat a fascist this election, we will not do a damn thing about fascism.
Yes, agree, but the harder discussion revolves around the context that produced him, how the policies Biden has long supported created a societal context that could produce Trump, and how little will be done if Biden governs as he is promising. If society produces this monster, if so many people are being utterly crushed by this system, if we have an environmental crisis that demands radical changes but we change nothing with Biden, does it change the context we exist in? Does it make it less likely that another Trump will be on the ticket in 2024? Will it reduce the apathy or anger so many feel against the entirety of the system?
Yes, but what came before that? Germany was destroyed by WWI debts, it was destroyed by being shut out of international financial markets, it was not allowed to export to countries like the US that could have maybe allowed it to pay off some of its external debt, they dealt with the hyperinflation that caused, and had a socialist revolution that came within a hair of being victorious. The Bolsheviks were waiting, as Marxists they believed the socialist revolution was going to break out in a capitalist society and that victorious revolution in Germany would sweep them along too. But it didn’t, and the Nazis grew with the overt support of big business, large landowners and foreign capital. The society broke down completely. I don’t look just at Trump and see a fascist, I look at the context that is producing him. THAT is very similar, and the collapse in actually leftist parties and the ravages of neoliberalism has created a context for the far right to grow elsewhere too.
Watched the whole damn thing and ended up eating a 1/2 a bag (large bag) of Cheetos (of all things). At least the Cheetos were a knock off organic brand!
I was, for a time, a never Biden person for all the reasons we’ve discussed here on CD’s ----i.e. policies that were/are awful and how he/the dems helped get us to this point etc.
In addition, his cognitive decline is evident if you watch videos of him from a few years ago and compare them to now. Frankly I did not think (wishful thinking?) he would make it this far. Disgusted that this is what rose to the top of the toilet as someone else posted last night . . but we’ve got the DNC/duopoly with concentrated power.
With that said, Biden held up much better than I thought he would. He even connected with some voters (seemingly ?) when he ignored trump, looked directly into the camera and told people “this man is a liar who will not help you” . . . as well as asking people at home how many of them are hurting due to covid or the economy etc.
Say what you will about Biden but fwiw he does not lie 100% of the time (wooo hooo!) He tells us he is opposed to M4all, opposed to the Green New Deal etc. (stomach lurches as I type this)
Even Chris Hedges points out recently that at least Biden is “not insane” as is trump.
I’ll admit(sheepishly) to then watching CNN process the debate. Kirsten Powers (one of the pundits) made an excellent point re: Biden’s performance.
She shared her experience working on air with Bill O’ Reilly who is similar to trump in incessant, monstrous attacks. She stated that for her, it was extremely difficult to hold it together for more than 5 minutes when someone is heckling you, attacking you, as Bill O’Reilly did to her. Within minutes she had a migraine—she couldn’t imagine holding up to that for over an hour and she is young, strong and mentally very sharp.
I wonder if even Bernie would have held up to trump last night.
Point is----trump would make it difficult for anyone to hold steady and last night trump was over the top---- as if he snorted cocaine (which is what another pundit alluded to)
I was surprised Biden held up as well as he did. I really thought he would have a melt down or go into the “dog faced pony soldier” wacko statements and ramble on incoherently.
But I do know his prep was focused on not letting trump get to him.
trump’s attacks covered up many of Biden’s flaws and Wallace helped with that by not having control of the debate. For those that want Biden to oust trump—I see that as a good thing.
Finally-----I’m speaking as someone desperate to stop what I see as a coup and full throttled fascism.
While it was cringe worthy to hear Biden respond to the Green New Deal comment among other things (countless things) and while I despise the DNC and never thought I would vote Biden I think the debate went well in that it helped expose more of the pathology of our system and trump.
My biggest concern today is how to stop the potential violence that is repeatedly called for by trump.
How can that be stopped or at least minimized?
We’re already in the throes of it, actually.
It already has…
The USA already is Fascist; i thought the repression of the mass protests illustrated this reality to you people…?
i suppose this is yet another instance in which some “progressives” have the (white) privilege of pretending that conditions are less-bad than they really are.
The mic of the “person”, who is not addressing the question posed, needs to be TURNED OFF for the allotted 2 minutes. Or maybe have Jesse Ventura or some other intimidating person moderate /inforce the agreed upon rules. I couldn’t watch this shttshow on TV, but the NYT online feed had “journalists” live commenting that made it bearable.
Agree with Sanders. Perhaps a tangential consideration is whether Biden should withdraw from the last two debates. These considerations should I believe, be the basis of the decision:
(1) Does post debate polling suggest the American people have turned away from Trump in sufficient numbers to preclude a Trump election victory. Answer: No
(2) Does Trump’s threat to undermine the electoral process require/demand further scrutiny, rebuttal and attack. Answer: Yes
(3) Are there still enough undecided voters to make the election closer than it should. Answer: I believe so.
Yes- the debates are a public embarrassment and a signal to the world that we have a madman as President. But they already knew that. Now their citizenry knows it with absolute certainty.
Trump should withdraw- but has too much pride. And Biden really shouldn’t- pride or not.
I see what you are saying and it sickens me that too many people are in denial due to their privilege and comfort. I don’t think Joan is one of them----I find her comments very incisive and thought provoking and far from denial of pathologies of our system in the u.s.
I am curious though as to your thoughts on what, if anything to do at this point if you are a u.s. citizen?
Are you practicing detachment, letting go . . . letting it fall down and moving into an attempt at acceptance of collapse? (hoping that you and those you love won’t be raped, killed, tortured in the process?)
That is serious question. I’m a white woman and a survivor of sexual assault----the latter I would not wish on anyone. So what I say above about being raped, tortured and more is not hysterical, it comes from experience----it is not hyperbole.
Re: conditions in the u.s. being bad . . . . . I think that they are extremely dire but will can (and will?) get much, much worse.
With AGW/climate chaos/ecosystem destruction there is NO going back to BAU even with another neoliberal dem at the helm.
So. . . . what is one to do at this moment in history?
No, the environmental crisis has not fully hit. I know the state we are in, not just in regards to carbon emissions. The collapse in biodiversity, the overfishing of the ocean, dead zones caused by pollution runoff, soil erosion, deforestation, ocean acidification that threatens phytoplankton, etc. We have not really felt it yet, it will make COVID-19 look like a walk in the park. And there is no realistic way for markets to solve this problem, we have reached the limits of growth in regards to throughput, so we need radical changes far beyond anything Bernie was calling for. We are going to break down, which is why I was so beside myself when Biden got the nomination. It effectively dooms our society, and likely the rest of the world given our still standing power globally.
I would add—
(4) what can be done now to insure violence does not further hamper the voting process and how to halt the increasing/open calls by trump for armed insurrection.
p.s. isn’t that a form of treason?
i agree that Joan Robinson is an outstanding commenter with excellent insights (& “gets it”); i was merely pointing out that she/you/we have to keep in mind that the crisis is already upon us in our rhetoric to the unaware.
i appreciate you taking the time to ask me frankly what i think should be done; naturally, the answer to that should be a nuanced one, taking into consideration all of your unique living conditions.
For you, as a white woman, i basically think that you should be out in the streets like the Portland Wall of Moms were, assuming you live in an urban center or near one.
if you’re elderly and can’t move about well enough to be in a chaotic situation like that, then i would have you play cheerleader to younger folks like myself.
If you’re in a more rural area (Trump country), i think you should be going about changing hearts & minds as persuasively as you can, while stockpiling weapons & ammo to use to protect you & yours (& any POC who you might know, because they’re probably going to be targeted after November 3rd, if they haven’t been already).
Im sorry that us men suck so phuckin’ much; sometimes i think for a second, like, “damn, women of all colors get stuck with us dummies and are expected to just put up with us.” When that thought flashes through my mind, it’s like a seismic jolt - women are (& have been) sooo phuckin’ patient. We should teach self-defense as part of physical education to every young woman; i always advise my younger female relatives to carry a weapon. That’s a sad state of affairs but I’d much rather they kill a man than be raped by one.
im preparing for the Inevitable - if i get any more specific than that, i’ll be accused of being an agent provocateur for the umpteenth time.
Much better for you than crunchy salty snacks-Xanax. Bourbon. Weed. Or a combination of the three.
As for Biden’s speech patterns, I just learned he has a stutter. Life-long. We who have this neurological issue frequently speak slowly, hunting for easier words to use to express what we want to say. When under stress of any kind, it’s even worse. Which is why I use an anti-anxiety med if I know I’m going to be out and about speaking with people.
Otherwise, my first reaction to this whole dumpster fire was…what the Fuck was THAT?!
It’s becoming more & more obvious that pointing ^this^ out has made me a pariah on this forum🤣.
Amen!!! oh how I wish Bernie was the nominee…
I did NOT watch the S**TShow (as Dana from CNN called it) and i am glad I did NOT… We are being constantly being abused by DJT and his minions
Wow. Much gratitude to you for taking the time to respond to my question with your thoughtful post! Thank you.
Yours is an extremely helpful comment not just a bunch of opinions that serve no purpose----- a comment that I will share with others (in person which is the best form of communication imo) if you don’t mind.
Your comments about women made me weep out of relief.
The world needs more men to speak these truths.
In the meantime, I carry bear spray! I’m more afraid of people than bears. Though the bears have been rather bold over the past few years ----this spring on my deck literally banging at the window! Stupid people feed them, we’ve messed up their habitat and more . .
I’ve gone door to door in previous “elections”. Canvassed for Bernie and had some productive conversations. Now with covid, we are isolated ( covid cases/hospitalizations are rising very fast in my state), people are on edge and of course, divisiveness is increasing.
I may not be able to leave the country but when/if I can leave the state where I live to move to a more progressive area, I will.
Thanks again for your response.
The hamburger is also full of broken glass.
I guess it looks more like food, though.
More like a bottle of urine and a bowl of broken glass, but at least the former is much less harmful than the latter.
I couldn’t watch beyond the first five minutes. But not Old Dudes — it was more like a second-grader raised with a bit of discipline arguing with a spoiled kindergartner having a tantrum. How anyone from the U.S. can ever again attend a WHO or NATO or U.N. meeting is beyond my comprehension.
As noted last night, there should be a green light at each podium that turns to yellow after two minutes, and after another thirty seconds turns red as that mic is shut off. Also, how about adding challenges, like in a tennis match? Each child has three – and only three – single-use buzzers that he (or she) can use to interrupt a blatant lie for a thirty-second objection/correction.
My sincere hope that neither would survive 'til November 3rd is fading fast.
I can forgive those who voted for Tweetle-Dumb in 2016 out of disgust with Hideous Hilliary, but ONLY those who
do not for for him a second time.
IMHO, that is a serious concern. To what extent are the various governors and mayors making plans to minimize the impending chaos?
The right-wingers Jim Jones with spiked kool-aid being passed around.