glad to see this is getting wider coverage:
~https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/03/wisconsin-hunters-kill-216-wolves-less-than-60-hours-uproar
Yes, wait for it, it is called clean, non-polluting, coal!
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Cold fusion technology - just around the corner…we’ve heard that for at least a decade. And don’t even need it.
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Joe Manchin - “Jesus Christ! What don’t you understand about never?” ’ I’ll never abandon coal (corporations).’
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LOL
He’ll probably come up with a ‘new study’
Moore and Gibbs bring up overpopulation in a very roundabout way, and they don’t really give much of a “treatment” to it at all. With their expose on renewables, they basically imply exactly say what you’ve already said, that our problem isn’t so much carbon, or population, as it is our unsustainable lifestyle. They certainly don’t propose any kind of population control.
Jeff Gibbs says the following, in Planet of the Humans:
“Every expert I talked to wanted to bring my attention to the same underlying problem. There are too many human beings using too much, too fast. As a global community, we really have got to start dealing with the issue of population. Population growth continues to be the not the elephant. It’s the herd of elephants in the room.”
This YouTube clip (=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__UJ09PZFoI
), by environmentalist George Monboit, includes segments of Michael Moore / Jeff Gibbs’ Planet of the Humans, in which they highlight the need for ‘population control’.
There is no question that the earth has a finite resources and humans are destabilizing ecological systems. However, Moore and Gibbs refusal to acknowledge the racist and genocidal history of ‘population control’ only serves to promote White Supremacy. The fact that Moore and Gibbs continue to refuse to acknowledge the racist connections to ‘population control’ is, in my opinion, a reflection of their arrogance and failure to confront their own White Privilege.
=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/07/michael-moore-far-right-climate-crisis-deniers-film-environment-falsehoods
=https://medium.com/climate-conscious/michael-moores-planet-of-the-humans-offers-dangerous-solutions-to-the-climate-crisis-c25d59c96270
Please note that your quote is not from a single source in the film. It is an amalgam of several people (mostly scientists) talking. And it’s pretty much the only part of the film which mentions population. Also, in your clip, Manibot claims Gibbs and Moore propose the solution to our problems is that there “should be” a mass die-off. That is grossly false. They never said that. Given all the inputs, mass die-off is just what is going to happen, period. It doesn’t need to be engineered by anyone or anything beyond doing what we are already doing. Thanks for the history lesson George, but it’s not actually very relevant to the coming crash. Painting people as racist isn’t particularly helpful, either. And come on, even Bill Mckibben has since admitted that his championing biomass was a mistake. I think we all know what changed his mind.
~https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-a-warming-planet/to-counter-climate-change-we-need-to-stop-burning-things
I just re-watched the segment of the film (=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEb0FJ6rU3w). Jeff Gibbs states:
“Though each of them takes climate change seriously, every expert I talked to wanted to bring my attention to the same underlying problem:”
· “There are too many human beings using too much, too fast.” — Richard Heinberg
· “As a global community we have really got to start dealing with the issue of population.” — Steven Churchill
· “Population growth continues to be, not the elephant, the herd of elephants in the room.” — Nina Jablonski
The message is clear. He only put forth quotes that advocate for "population control. Clearly Gibbs is using the “voice of the expert” to articulate a perspective that he is trying to advance.
I find it curious that I, as a Latinx, can admit that the prevalence of White Supremacy in our society affects me to such a degree that I have to constantly battle against my own perpetuation of racism, but many White folk become enraged whenever anyone insinuates that their actions, or inactions, in any way enable White Supremacy. To be clear, I am not criticizing Moore and Gibbs for existing in a society which is infused with White Supremacy. George Monboit also exists in a society infused with White Supremacy, yet Monboit acknowledges his White privilege, challenges White Supremacy, and has engaged with people of color as a brother. I criticize Moore and Gibbs for: refusing to acknowledge their White privilege; for refusing to listen to and learn from Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other people of color; and for refusing to engage with Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other people of color as partners.
Moore and Gibbs absolutely perpetuated White Supremacy by refusing to acknowledge the depth to which racism has been, and continues to be, embedded in efforts to promote ‘population control’. To this day, they continue to refuse to address the racist trends in ‘population control’.
The actual perspective Gibbs and Moore were clearly trying to advance throughout the entire film is that capitalism offers only false solutions to the problems capitalism itself has created. Though they aren’t actually required offer solutions, it seems pretty obvious that ditch capitalism was heavily implied. That message can’t possibly sit well with the Al Gores and Richard Bransons of the world, for good reason. Yet because Gibbs did note in a very brief segment that all the experts he interviewed voiced concern about human population growth and the impending die-off, some great sin was committed.
Were Gibbs and Moore supposed to have silenced or denounced all these experts for their concerns, thereby ending racism? Capitalism itself (and its predecessors) provides the hierarchy through which White Supremacy is perpetuated, yet this anti-capitalist film that very briefly mentions “dealing with population” is the real culprit? Obviously, this is absurd. Moore himself, author of Stupid White Men, has unfailingly voiced support for BLM and defunding the police, and has used his podcast to platform people of colour. I don’t see you or Manibot acknowledge any of that, but of course that would fly in the face of the “White Privilege” narrative being used to try and cancel both him and Gibbs. Any why cancel them? Because they exposed uncomfortable truths about powerful people on the left.
I absolutely agree and with the notion that the fate of human society rests with developing just and sustainable alternatives to capitalism. I think the solution is to struggle to develop alternative systems of governance and economics that are democratic, equitable, and sustainable. Discussions about the resource limitations of the earth, population size, the racism embedded in it’s history current articulation of efforts to limit population growth, and coming to a consensus a a fair and just plans of action, should be part of the work we engage in. However, engaging in efforts to promote limits to population growth, in the context of the current White Supremacist power structures that exist today, only serves to amplify racism.
I applaud Michael Moore for articulating support for Black Lives Matter. No, Wayhey, neither I, nor Monboit are engaged in efforts to “cancel” Michael Moore or Jeff Gibbs. Neither of us are saying that Michael Moore and Jeff Gibbs are David Duke. The fact is that Human beings are complex. All human beings have flaws/shortcomings, people occasionally make mistakes, and often people act in ways that are contradictory. It is possible to have appreciation for people, like Moore and Gibbs, for some of their actions, while simultaneously criticizing other actions. That’s not “cancel culture”, it’s having mature and nuanced reflections and critical analyses.
Yes, Michael Moore used his power and privilege to voice support for Black Lives Matter, etc That was helpful. My critique is that by producing a film that articulates population control, without identifying the history of White Supremacist and the current White Supremacist trends in movements for population control, Moore and Gibbs have inflicted harm to Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other people of color.
I never stated or implied that, Wayhey. What I am saying that they should have done, is add a reflection on the population control statements that they chose to highlight. They should have included reflection on the fact that has efforts at population control, have been, and continue to be, heavily influenced by White Supremacy
And, even if that was not possible in the film, Moore and Gibbs could, at the least, use their post production interviews to acknowledge that White Supremacist is infused in population control movements. What is very disturbing, about Moore and Gibbs actions with respect to critique of their treatment of population control, is that, rather than acknowledge that White Supremacy has played, and continues to play, a large role in population control efforts, they have dug in their heels. Moore and Gibbs continue to dismiss all critiques of their treatment of population control and they continue to deny any gaps in their treatment of the topic or suggestions that promoting population control can due damage to Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other people of color.
““Phasing out coal from the electricity sector is the single most important step to get in line with the 1.5 degree goal,” Guterres continued”
We are not staying under 1.5°. The chances of staying under 2° are virtually zero. The best we can reasonably hope for after decades of delay by insane people is 3° to stop tipping points from raising the world to 6° over preindustrial temperature, well into human extinction territory.
Coal is dead.
By far the most important thing we need to do to stop catastrophic warming is to remove the US oligarchic duopoly and jackal pack of malignant narcissist CEOs from power.
Because it causes just as much warming as coal without the cooling aerosols, the second (or third or fourth or…) most important thing is to stop burning methane gas.
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Really? I endorse curtailing population growth, and even shrinking the global human population. So because I say that in the context that exists today, that means I’m amplifying racism?
I only see three options ahead of us. We breed until catastrophe curtails our numbers for us, or we force a reduction in our reproductive rate by mandate, or we voluntarily curtail our reproduction. My preference is for the last option, and it looks like that has already happened in most of the developed world. It also looks like it doesn’t even require a campaign to convince people to reproduce less. Apparently all that is needed is for people to have a first world lifestyle that meets their needs, some better education and better opportunities, and reasonable autonomy over their reproductive decisions–especially for women. So if I mention reduced reproduction as one of the reasons to support a better standard of living for the developing world and greater reproductive autonomy, is that necessarily amplifying racism?
I see your reasoning with respect to the three options you identify. But this ties in to my concern for how the efforts to promote population control, within the current White Supremacist power structures, amplify racism. In particular, it is members of the current White Supremacist power structure, who have influence in determining the implementation of any options for population control - your three options and others. I previously mentioned to you, the initiative the resulted in the sterilization of 1/3 of the women in Puerto Rico. I’ve recently heard renewed justification of this program. My point is that programs, such as this, do not democratically incorporate the voices of members of Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other communities of color.
=https://theintercept.com/2020/09/17/forced-sterilization-ice-us-history/
=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/17/opinion/americas-shameful-ongoing-history-sterilizing-women/
=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/25/ice-is-accused-sterilizing-detainees-that-echoes-uss-long-history-forced-sterilization/
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Thanks, I didn’t know this history of Puerto Rico. Having this in US past history paves the way for other countries to do the same. And they do.
I mentioned sterilization that is promoted in American prisons and among the mentally challenged people in a previous post somewhere.
Birth control and abortion have been frowned on by many in our country, while these issues of sterilization are hushed.
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Thanks for the comment. By the way, I just had an interesting, and disturbing, conversation about this work on the continued White Supremacy dominating population control movements associated with efforts to address climate change: =https://nyupress.org/9781479899357/on-infertile-ground/
In dialogs I’ve participated in with Black, Brown, Indigenous folk, other people of color, and LGBTIA folk, I’ve found a growing acknowledgement to the need to be vigilant to how our different privileges perpetuate injustice, oppression, and inequitable power dynamics. Unfortunately, I find that it’s really hard for many white progressives to acknowledge that given the degree to which White Supremacy is infused in our world, many of our progressive initiatives, continue to perpetuate, or enable, White Supremacy.
“There is no question that the earth has a finite resources and humans are destabilizing ecological systems. However, Moore and Gibbs refusal to acknowledge the racist and genocidal history of ‘population control’ only serves to promote White Supremacy. The fact that Moore and Gibbs continue to refuse to acknowledge the racist connections to ‘population control’ is, in my opinion, a reflection of their arrogance and failure to confront their own White Privilege.”
I’m sorry but you are just so fundamentally wrong it is not funny. You are not seeing the big picture and if that is what you see as “white supremacy” I hope you can step outside your comfort zone and research a little bigger demographic that doesn’t have to have a bogey man. (victimology)
If you look at that population issue in the Global north, “white people” will be a minority by 2045. Wouldn’t you think with all that supremacy there wouldn’t be a greater effort to sustain their numbers?
Already a minority in my state.
Population reduction is not based on race, if a specific ethnic group is identified, it is a numerical consideration, too little, too much, or in the wrong place.
I do not represent all Black, Brown, Indigenous, and people of color, but there are a lot who share my perspective. The “you”, you identify as wrong, are a lot of Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other people of color. Here’s a book that addresses some of this: =https://nyupress.org/9781479899357/on-infertile-ground/
I would like to know your evidence based disagreements with the material they present.
I’d also encourage you to examine your own privilege and your choice whether or not to challenge White Supremacy and other unjust and oppressive social dynamics.
I encourage you to learn more about the history of population control:
=https://notchesblog.com/2020/12/08/in-the-service-of-white-supremacy-immigration-and-reproductive-violence/
=https://www.sierraclub.org/washington/blog/2020/01/overpopulation-myth-and-its-dangerous-connotations
=https://www.lifesitenews.com/waronfamily/Population_Control/Inherentracism.pdf
How about naming a few of the groups you work with since you have first hand information? You can find my data on just about any world/state demographic measurement. (it is not news because it has been on-going for some time)
Trust me, I’ve examined my sociological position extensively, I would suggest you do the same.
If I may, do you think I’m white and your not?
Science for the People: =https://scienceforthepeople.org/
Cooperation Jackson: =https://cooperationjackson.org/
Cooperation Humbolt:=https://cooperationhumboldt.com/
Casa Pueblo: =https://casapueblo.org/
Movimiento Cosecha:=https://www.lahuelga.com/
Kerala Sasthra Sahithya Parishad=https://kssp.in/
Comuna Altos de Lídice: =https://www.facebook.com/comunaaltosdelidice/
Fórum Brasileiro de Economia Solidária: =https://fbes.org.br/