CIA insiders objected to the arrest, rendition, and torture of Syrian-born Canadian Maher Arar, but high-ranking officials ignored concerns that they were punishing an innocent man, according to former spy and whistleblower John Kiriakou in an interview with the Canadian Press.
Jacques Ellul in his seminal work, The Technological Society warned us this could happen. Coercive bureaucracies will always strive for maximum efficiency (one tragically achieved, he noted, by the concentration camps) in dealing with "threats" to the polity. Police and the military (among whom one includes intelligence agencies such as the CIA) seek "independence" from civilian oversight for this very "reason." Humane considerations, constitutional/human rights considerations and common sense all too often are perceived by the coercers as "obstacles" to be overcome and/or eliminated. Hence, the criminal/pariah status of Kiriakou, Snowden, Manning, Plame, et al, and the excruciatingly painful fate suffered by scapegoat, Mr. Maher Arar, at the hands of these careerist monsters.
We had better formulate legal policies with some teeth in them that actually rein in our runaway bureaucrats before we all suffer the fate in Reverend Niemoller's words, "First they came..."
The whole War on Terror is a complete fraud. These KGB-like agencies are the problem. They will invent terrorists in order to justify their existence. LAPD Rampart got caught doing the same thing: Fabricating thousands of drug arrests in Southern California to generate revenue. The solution was to fire everyone involved and throw out the convictions of everyone convicted by the department.
This man deserves much more than an apology. He is entitled to restitution. Our unjust justice system would never allow anyone who was victimized by our government into court. NATIONAL SECURITY. What a joke.
Pechorin; "The USA refuses to apologize for use of the atom bomb against Japan."
That is because we have nothing to apologize for. The Japanese Brought all they got on themselves.
They started the war. They killed and tortured the prisoners of war and the Japanese mindset at that time was death over surinder. They trained 14 year old boys to be kamikaze pilots. They would commit suicide rather than surinder. If we would have had to send ground troops Into Japan it would have cost millions of lives on both sides. To prove my point. After the first atomic bomb they would not surinder, It took two.
Then they gave up. After the war with our help they have become one of the richest nation in the world.
should we apologize for that too?
America is far worse than any other nation in the world today. Why? Because we profess, in our: sanitized versions of history, the legends and all rhetoric passed on to the present day, all the history and civics our public and private educational institutions teach our children from K thru 12 and into our colleges and universities...... to be the polar opposite of what we are in actuality. We place a thin but sturdy veneer of lies, half truths, pure fantasy over our deeds and policies and fantastically, our ignorant lazy and bedazzled by nonsense populace believes it all without analysis. Kiriakou is a brave man.. And ultimately a ruined man because he dares lift the sheet and show his ungrateful fellow citizens the rot underneath the pretty noble cover.
Six months of intense firebombing of 67 other Japanese cities. Did nothing to expedite a surinder. Nothing
would have not starvation, not lack of fuel.
Okinawa campaign (April 1-July 2) that had cost 50,000 American casualties and 200,000 Japanese and Okinawa dead. Okinawa saw the worst losses in the history of the U.S. Navy. Over 300 ships were damaged, more than 30 sunk, as about 5,000 sailors perished under a barrage of some 2,000 Kamikaze attacks.
Truman after the war stated that he had been advised that American casualties could range from 250,000 to one million men. Millions of Japanese military and civilian casualties were expected.Millions of women, old men, and boys and girls had been trained to resist by such means as attacking with bamboo spears and strapping explosives to their bodies and throwing themselves under advancing tanks. The Japanese cabinet had approved a measure extending the draft to include men from ages fifteen to sixty and women from seventeen to forty-five (an additional 28 million people). Supporters also point to an order given by the Japanese War Ministry on August 1, 1944, ordering the disposal and execution of all Allied prisoners of war, numbering over 100,000, if an invasion of the Japanese mainland took place.
This has been debated for decades and I will not debate it any longer. You have your opinion and I have mine.
I didn't insult or degrade you in any way. I just told you the truth and everything I wrote was the truth.
"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
Your argument is that Japanese savagery justified American crimes. But when a crime is committed against you, does that give you the right to commit a greater crime? A stranger comes and shoots your dog; does that give you the right to go over to his house, kill his dog, his kids, his wife, his neighbours, and everyone in his family down three generations?
Because that's pretty much what we did. Japan treacherously attacked Pearl Harbour, and killed thousands of American servicemen. In response, ultimately, we went to Japan and murdered a million women and children.
It's true that an invasion would have been costly- but what price would have been reasonable to avoid those prospective casualties? What if the only way to avoid them would have been to kill every last Japanese man, woman, and child? Would killing them all have been justified?
Because we would have done it.
There were prominent, experienced military men who said the atomic bombing was not necessary. Eisenhower was one, as was the head of the Pacific Fleet.
Japan in the abstract deserved defeat, as you say. But it's hard to see that the little children vaporized at Hiroshima were in any way responsible. For a good primer on that subject, see the Japanese animated movie, "Grave Of The Fireflies".
You and the others that think like you Have not taken into count of the Japanese mindset at that time. perhaps this will enlighten you about It.
Your scenario about the killing of my dog and the over reaction of killing all that had anything to do with the person that shot my dog.
The Japanese killed more than just a dog.
Although some Japanese were taken prisoner, most fought until they were killed or committed suicide. In the last, desperate months of the war, this image was also applied to Japanese civilians. To the horror of American troops advancing on Saipan, they saw mothers clutching their babies hurling themselves over the cliffs rather than be taken prisoner.
Not only were there virtually no survivors of the 30,000 strong Japanese garrison on Saipan, two out of every three civilians - some 22,000 in all - also died.
The other enduring image of total sacrifice is that of the kamikaze pilot, ploughing his plane packed with high explosives into an enemy warship. Even today, the word 'kamikaze' evokes among Japan's former enemies visions of crazed, mindless destruction.
What in some cases inspired - and in others, coerced - Japanese men in the prime of their youth to act in such a way was a complex mixture of the times they lived in, Japan's ancient warrior tradition, societal pressure, economic necessity, and sheer desperation.
(Vice Chairman, U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey)
"Even without the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it seemed highly unlikely, given what we found to have been the mood of the Japanese government, that a U.S. invasion of the islands [scheduled for November 1, 1945] would have been necessary."
Nitze was talking about mindset.
If dropping the bomb saved one American I say drop it.
Your arrogance is showing and it ain't pretty.
But you and a lot of reading you recommended convinced me that you are right. This is hard to write but when I'm wrong I will admit it. Not everyone can know everything about everything. How can any person choose to ignore something they never knew it existed? I bet Doctors, lawyers and 90% of college graduates don't know anything about this. So climb down from the pedestal you placed yourself on and give us peons some slack. Now I have to do this again to a guy named Duglarri.
PS thank you.
Hi Duglarri. I am writing this to thank you. You and an arrogant guy named Pechorin showed me how wrong I was in my thinking and the history I believed all my life was incorrect and yes Ike was against dropping the bomb. After doing a lot of reading rethinking. I said the same thing about Bush and torture. We do not have to sink to their level to win a war. You are right.
Well Pechoin You would not see the arrogance but you expect everyone to know what you do and look down on people that don't. I never had the time to go looking for things I did not know existed I was to busy trying to pay the bills. I knew that the japanese attacked the USA that is a fact. I also know that they killed and tortured poisoners of war also a fact.
Pechoin: "That you choose to ignore the written testimony of the two most prominent US military leaders in the Pacific speaks volumes about you".
What kind of an arrogant statement is this. I told you before that I could not ignore something that I had never knew existed and you still bring it up speaks volumes about you.
in thirty years I had two vacations and I sure didn't go looking up any "US diplomatic archives".
I still bet Doctors, lawyers and 90% of college graduates don't know anything about This topic.
Wow. I am impressed. It's rare anyone says they learned something and changed their opinions. Good on ya. I would call you an intelligent person. It's amazing how many things we were 'taught' that were either flat out lies or at least not the entire story. Have you read 'A People's History' by Howard Zinn? If not I highly recommend it. It's the history of America from the perspective of what was happening with us 'regular' folk. Really a good read and an eye opener. Should be required reading for anyone before they graduate high school imho. Cheers.
Hey Merf. Yeah I herd what I said all my life from aunts uncles my mother and father and in school.
Live and learn even if it takes 60 years. I will find that book and read it. Thank you.
I'd like to also say how impressed I am that you were able to take a look at added information and make a change in your views. The whole question of those bombs is vastly complicated and includes so many "but wait, what about..." for instance, the fact that Japan appears to have kept the war on for months because of the American demand for "unconditional surrender", which in the end, Truman discarded. Duh.
The points you made are also valid. My own father was scheduled to fly as an air gunner in the invasion of Japan that never happened, so if the war had not ended, I might not be here.
But I think it's a kind of a variation of Kohlberg's levels of moral development, in which the first stage is, "we need to win", then later, "wait, at what cost?" There was a moral battle inside the US Army was between those who were at a later stage, like Haywood Hansell, and his boss, Hap Arnold, who clearly was at the "kill them all" stage.
Until May of 1945, the US B-29 attacks on Japan were all about hitting factories. Hap Arnold fired Hansell, whose methods were "too slow", and put Curtis Lemay in charge, and it was Curtis Lemay who came in and said, "let's use the British model", and go after civilans. They fired the guys who were saying, "I didn't learn to fly to kill women and children," and replaced them with Lemay, who was more than okay with that.
The atomic bombing was a natural consequence of firebombing 70 Japanese cities- but the firebombing itself was anything but a natural consequence. It was the abandonment of precision bombing at the very time when that kind of bombing, in Europe, had finally worked. Impatience on the part of people lower down moral ladder, but higher up the chain of command, led to all that carnage.
And the rendition of Arar seems to demonstrate a similar path. Kiriakou describes CIA staff objecting to the incarceration and torture of an innocent man. People higher up the chain of command seem to have had no trouble with that. It was a question of moral development. Power was held by people with insufficient moral development to prevent a terrible injustice.
My thinking is that you yourself have just gone through a kind of progression in your thinking by exposure to new voices, like Eisenhower.
And I was interested by your remark about "what you believed all your life"- well, no wonder, since challenging the bombing, even if you are a President like Eisenhower, just didn't seem to get into the history books!
We need more from people like him who said, "no, this is wrong;" maybe then, people like those CIA operators who snatched Arar would have gotten it right.
And we sure need more people like you who are willing to change their views. I hope I'm as able to do it as you when I'm wrong myself- which I no doubt am on many occasions!
Hi Duglarri, Thank you for the comment. I have been a big admirer of Eisenhower ever since read some of his speeches and quotes. He said what I thought this country should be and do.
"We are going to have peace even if we have to fight for it."
I had to laugh out lowed when I read this one
“We will never be the aggressor.”
Bush-Cheney took this one away from me.
“The world thinks of us as a country which is strong, but one which will never start a war.”
and this one too.
“Integrity in Government is mandatory."
This does not exist any where in this country now.
“I deeply believe that one of the supreme hopes for the world’s destiny lies in the American community: in its moral values, in its sense of order and decency, in its cooperative spirit.”
these are also gone
”Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history."
The Republican party is working very hard to take these from us.
All of these things that I loved about being an American have been destroyed and taken from me.
my pride in being an american is gone.
I sure glade that you and your kind are still around.
Ht merf. I just ordered "A PEOPLE'S HISTORY" Thanks for the recommendation. hang tuff man
Good posts. I gave you an upvote since you made a good argument about a complex history that was hidden from us in school. I'm not so sure you are completely wrong. First, the other posters here are completely ignoring the fact that Japan had invaded Manchuria in the early 1930's (The Raping of Naking) complete with their sex slaves which lawsuits continue to this day over. But more unspoken history is there also. OSS (later CIA) had been in active guerrilla warfare with the Japanese Imperial army years before the Pearl Harbor Attack by building airstrips and roads in Western China. This gave rise to the covert American Volunteer Group the "Flying Tigers" which used British Hurricanes from the lend-lease program out of Burma to attack the Japanese.
So, there's always more to the story it seems.
Intense rivalry existed between Nimitz, MacAuthor and Army Air Corps/USAF General Curtis Lemay on who was going to get to finish the Japanese off. It's quite natural for Naval Commanders who lost the argument about re-taking the Philippines first, to the Army's MacAuther, to say they, the Navy, had the situation in hand. Curtis Lemay was the one who prosecuted burning down the 67 cities with cruel incendiary bombs via his B-29's, pushed to nuke Japan, and advocated later for a first nuclear strike against Russia (fortunately, he was ignored.)
So, the Japanese were no saints, but neither was what became the USAF.
Let's face it: The first thing to die in war is the truth.
Great! I think you will enjoy it. I know I did even though I was not popular with family for a while when bursting some of their long held bubbles- lol.
Thank you for the reply. I had completely for gotten about the Flying Tigers ( OLD AGE .)
Your "The first thing to die in war is the truth." Love it. Just a few words but says a lot.
Thank you for your input.