it was good to hear that Hillary's answer to this latest incident is a call for more none specific gun legislation, and of course more domestic spying and the continued march towards a police state.
Now Hillary and the rest of the war mongering democrats like Feinstein and Boxer and Murray, and Schumer can plan for the next escalation of military action in the Middle East. Violence is perfectly acceptable to a Clinton democrat, just so long as it's somewhere else, and done to brown people.
Yeah so Paul Ryan called for a moment of silence on this issue. I wonder how long he plans on not saying anything substantial on the subject. Moment of silence indeed!
Our dysfunctional and corrupt politicians will do Nothing. They have no clue how pissed the people are out here in the real world. They are totally confused about what is happening in this election. They don't know why we find the establishment (R and Ds) so repulsive. They can't understand why we don't want to be bent over any longer.
The hideous mass murders in Orlando are a tragedy of unspeakable proportions, as are all the previous others - innocents killed by hate or madness, or whatever makes a person think of such and act, made easier by guns. Hatred is a thing that must not be tolerated, neither racism or any of hates other forms and targets, including identifying others as "enemy". If we truly want to stop such domestic murders and grief by the survivor family and friends, we must stop hatred and its cousins and causes.
The issue of murders of innocent people and animals is easy, we must do all we can to stop the causes of such atrocities. "Gun control" is an "easy" call for some and a thorny one for others, millions own guns and never kill people or animals or even think of violence against another living thing. I think of the words "Shane" spoke in the 1953 film. Shane: "A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."
Marian: "We'd all be much better off if there wasn't a single gun left in this valley - including yours."
Politicians usually see an avenue to garner support from such senseless violence and hatred, but are hypocrites and don't seek the foundational causes of hatred, racism, aggression, pathological killing, or war and a war mentality - they take the easy route and speak the usual words but mostly do not address ALL the causes and expressions of violence in our society and world that lead to acts most people cannot even grasp.
Murders and the killings of innocents beside Americans or Brits, or French or tourists or anyone, must include military killings of innocents to be honest and inclusive. We have become a nation and world beset and ruled by violence, domestic and foreign, civilian, police and military - civilian murders are denounced as unacceptable while the others are often ignored, and labeled some whole other thing, somehow acceptable - both forms of violence and killings should/must be seen as "gun violence" to really seek and put an end to tragedies and grief everywhere.
Had Clinton's perjury and the Democratic Party's subsequent refusal to demand a Florida vote recount in 2000 not enabled the election of Dubya, the assault weapons ban would have been renewed when it expired during Dubya's first term.
Millions of assault weapons have now been spread all over Murka and illegally slipped through the border into Mexico and Canada (and beyond) in the subsequent decade plus.
Add all the assault weapons Congress has donated or approved for sale to rogue nations and closing Pandora's box looks simple by comparison.
If the Establishment Corporatist who have executed and buried the once great FDR Democratic Party would quit sucking on the teats of Wall Street and other monied special this problem would be solvable. The Brady Bill? A bare bones start premised on a need to stop violence. Because it did not do the job violence flourished under the so called Brady regime's weak and hypocritical effect upon gun violence that increased to unheard of levels under its life as a law. It was a Republican idea that became law only because saint ronnieWreagan and the affable Jim Brady were injured in the thankfully failed assignation attempt on what passed for a POTUS at that time. Since Willie Jeffy Clinton is nothing more than a Republican-Lite it was easy for him to sign a bill that was much ado about a little bit while protecting the profit and legal interests of Corporate America.
I have, like millions of others, been a responsible gun owner for almost all of my life. I currently own 2 hand guns and two shot guns - one of which I bought with the shortest legal barrel length available and a pistol grip handle. I have never been a hunter. I did not enjoy hunting but I have no objection to consuming game killed, dressed and butchered for such purpose. A overwhelming number of the men and a few women on both sides of my family enjoyed hunting and fishing. If I were physically able to I would still go fishing every so often. I grew up on the Texas Gulf Coast so I once enjoyed an abundant variety of seafood that is simply no longer abundant and in many cases not available. I now live in the center of Texas and my favorite seafood restaurant recently took scallops off of the menu with a "shocked outcry" from my Climate Change Denying neighbors here in the heart of The Red State Alternate Universe.
It is this Red State denial that is at the heart of the gun problem. The hardcore TGOPers listen to the propaganda of the extremist Right Wing Talkers and take it to heart as Political Gospel or inviolable dogma with talking points included which is then, like ripples of a rock, spread throughout the rest of the "Moronic Population" made so by the giant media corporations through elected red state officials while the Corporatist Democrats sing their songs of obedience by carry the water for Corporate America. Violating the rights of any Corporate Entity is sacrosanct in what passes for the American Political arena today.
The solution to stemming today's gun violence is relatively easy but will probably take a decade or more. First we ban assault weapons and hand guns above .45 caliber and .45 special loads. We follow the Australian model and buy back all banned weapons at above market rate. Expensive but the only fair way to take back banned weapons without creating more of a backlash and discontent that will follow. More importantly for hand guns we ban the add-ons that can make the weapon even more deadly. I have said nothing about hunting rifles. If one knows anything about hunting rifles one knows they are designed to kill game animals and are bulky, not easily hidden and difficult to use as a military style maximum casualty weapons. Even the famous semi-automatic M-1, our standard military issue weapon before the M-16, was in many ways just as difficult to use as a hunting rifle to inflict casualties. It was heavy, bulky and as a semi-automatic held only a few rounds before the ammo cartridge was empty. The M-16 was a vast improvement to use and inflict casualties upon the "enemy". So now we have military assault weapons in the hands of the general population. Why? So Corporate America can squeeze as much in profits from We, The Rabble as possible. They do not care about Sandy Hook or Orlando. Their mantra and therefore the mantra of the Corporate Democrats is Profits Before People and do not give a damn about the blood flowing on our streets as long as it is not their loved ones and friends.
The attitude of the Corporatist Democrats is best illustrated by Secretary Clinton during her campaign when she used the families of the Sandy Hook victims in a very successful maneuver to smear Bernie Sanders. Not only did she callously use the pain and grief of those families but she deployed, purely for political purposes, a worn out tactic that has failed to move the wholly owned Federal office holders of Corporate America. If the subject were not so serious her disingenuous ploy would have been laughable. It is long past time to stop offering theatrics on the subject. It is time to offer rational solutions and resolve the problem and stop the political posturing by professional politicians who are in office only to serve their Political Masters. We, The Rabble want gun violence greatly diminished and especially to eliminate that inflicted by the use of assault weapons and their many ways to enhance their violence upon our American Family.
First: Remember the Tobacco Industry? It has taken time but the number of new smokers has declined many fold over time and is saving countless lives through severely curtailing the access to cigarettes by prepubescent kids and teenagers. I knew people that started at 9, 10 or 11 or sometimes younger when anyone past the 3rd grade could walk up to a store counter and put a quarter or fifty cents down and buy cigarettes. And when they were rarely challenged the kids would just say "It's for my Mama." I started at 17 which is too young under today's law. Many of the adults in my family smoked - including both of my parents. Smoking was a widespread and mass addiction that through laws, effective rules and regulations has been significantly curtailed. It was just as URGENT to curtail DEATHS from TOBACCO as it is now to curtail the DEATHS from GUN VIOLENCE. Think not? If you were not around in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s you did not hear the ubiquitous reports of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Americans and the millions of people dying each year from lung and other cancers, heart attacks, strokes and even cigarette started fires. The casualties from Gun Violence pale to those of Tobacco. While that does not make gun deaths by any means acceptable we must put what we are dealing with in perspective and know that we can nearly eliminate gun deaths from our society. As long as there are those intent on doing violence on a mass scale, if they are required to be resourceful and work at it, most will give up - just like they have given up on the rest of their pathetic little lives. And justify the deaths of others through the pathetic causes of other losers is the most pathetic justification of all of their so called feel-good reasons to do the unthinkable. It took decades to get to where we are today and it will take at least a decade or more to undo what Corporate American has wrought in its quest to never let a corporation be held accountable lest the PROFITS of all of Corporate America be infringed upon by the will of We, The Living, Breathing People.
So let us stop sending Corporate Democrats and other TGOPers to elected Federal offices from POTUS to Congress and thereby the Federal Judiciary and their unconscionable interpretation and expansion of the so called 2nd Amendment rights which makes it hard for any level of government to curtail the use of firearms in crime. Decreasing Gun Violence is NOT ABOUT ELIMINATING IT! It is about highly reasonable measures to change our culture and cease glorifying these primarily "Lone Wolf" actors who perpetrate MASS MURDER upon their fellow human beings.
No justification can be had for these self-aggrandizing and lost little people seeking to get their 15 minutes and go down in the history books. So we stop publicizing these Father Frucking individuals and deny them their 15 minutes of fame and their place in history at least until they have been dead for 60 years or more. If they live for trial their real names can not be used and no photos of them should be allowed. There should be significant punishment that includes jail time for the owners and/or executives of companies that break such laws in allowing these Monsters to have their fame and to them Glory. I do not want to see the families of these murders on TV or in print or online news talking about how shocked they are and apologizing for the unforgivable acts their little boy/girl has committed. No Mamas. No Daddies. No ex spouses, siblings or other relations or friends or friends of friends, etc.
Until, if and before we change our laws in a reasonable and rational way that strikes to the heart of the problems then mass killings will continue. If we return to guns having a non glorified place in our society as hunting weapons and pistols being accountable to its owner then we can be on a much surer footing (as a business person carrying large amounts of cash I carried a pistol). [If a pistol is lost or stolen and one does not immediately report it then one can be held under a law accountable for such failure should the pistol be used in the commission of a crime.]
I know many truly Progressives will disagree with me on this issue. But we all must remember if Mama wants to murder Daddy, or vice versa, then there are a numerous of ways to do so limited only by one's own ingenuity. I can think of at least 25 ways, with only a pistol to stop those who want to stop me, of killing a number of people without using said pistol. But that requires ingenuity and patience which most mass murders do not have. Most of all them are governed by their perceived dictate that mass murder equals glory and death and therefore cool. After all they have seen thousands die on TV, in the Movies and now on the Internet. Just like our Corporate Masters want these sick FRUCKS to think. And you too - in case you hadn't noticed.
I sure hope so. Does it make any sense to stop someone flying (presumably so they can't blow up the plane with those explosives they manage to get through the TSA security that is supposed to make us so safe), but allow them to buy a weapon that can take down almost as many people as youwould find on a regional flight?
Sorry folks, this is pure hokum stinkum false: "President Barack Obama in 2008 outlined a proposal to make the legislation permanent, and another concerted push to ban assault weapons arose after the Sandy Hook shooting in December 2012, but Congress repeatedly refused to take action on any of those or other measures." In 2008, Senator Obama was running for president. He didn't take office until January, 2009. He then enjoyed a Congress in which both houses were controlled by his own party, the Democrats. And for the next two years, what did those democrats, with the Presidency and both houses, do with it?
Get over the crapola pandering to those spineless Wall Street puppets! Be explicit: the party-wide coward Democrats absolutely and adamantly refused to touch the issue!
"And despite other measures like the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, also signed in 1994, gun sales have continued to climb and gun violence remains widespread"
Let's rephrase that: "And despite other measures like the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, also signed in 1994, gun sales have continued to climb and gun violence had decreased steadily by 50% form 7 deaths /100,000 in 1993 to 3.4/100k in 2014"
Here's another statistic:
You have a better chance of being murdered by a criminal with a knife or being beaten to death than being shot with an "assault rifle" (whatever the definition du jour of that term is)
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. On the face of it you are concerned that eco-terrorists will be put on the list of those who cannot acquire guns, and I would agree that seems unfair. But then you threw in that word viciously, which changes everything. Either you were being sarcastic, or you don't know what viciously means, or you don't approve of those who sneak into factory farms with video cameras.
Two comments. First, the dramatic drop in gun violence corresponds to the years the assault weapon ban was in place, but maybe that is just a coincidence.
Second, bragging that gun deaths are now only 3.4/100k overlooks that fact that that number is more than twice the number of gun deaths in Israel, Canada, Norway, Australia, the UK and Japan combined. But it's down from more than four times, so that's great!
As for your other statistic, I'm not sure where you got ir from, but The Economist suggests exactly the opposite: http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/09/gun-control
True, but the "dramatic drop" continued after 2004 when the ban ended and gun sales soared. Lesson to learn is that more guns doesn't necessary mean more gun crime.
True, again on the second one. However, most of the gun deaths are suicides and most of the rest are gang bangers offing each other.
Second stat is from fbi.gov
"Democrat's Anger at Lack of Gun Control belies History of Inaction."
The action on display now is to have the Corporate Media (and NPR, of course) Obsess about this topic 24/7 while We the People marinate in the "Clinton Clinched" mendacity under its cover.
[quote="Emphyrio, post:7, topic:23804"]
"millions own guns and never kill people or animals or even think of violence against another living thing."
This is a very strange idea. Why on earth would they own guns? for "protection"? So many are killed by their own guns-accident, suicide, murder by a more skilled invader. I (luckily) do not live in the USA, and in all my life have hardly seen a gun have never felt threatened in a way I wished I had one, and I cannot comprehend the behavior of "ordinary Americans" (and of course Israelis) who use a gun in almost every situation. Toddlers killing others or themselves? A weekly occurrence. Shooting "by mistake"- the gun was loaded!!
The whole military might of the USA is pointed at many parts of the globe, people revere force, and no wonder it spreads all over the "society".
I guess it comes down to this: are gun-rights advocates proud of the level of gun violence - very definitely including suicides - that exists in this country? Are they comfortable living in a country where 100 people a day are shot and killed? Are they comfortable living in a community where it is 'necessary' to protect oneself with weapons that belong in the military? I'm not.
Whatever that means. There is one Democrat who is very angry indeed, and that is the President. Although his response to the Orlando shooting could be considered subdued, I sense that he is mad as hell. How many times has he had to address the nation after another awful shooting event? And what happens? Lots of thoughts and prayers, moments of silence - and then nothing! Because of the bloody NRA and its stranglehold on large numbers of members of Congress, nothing is done to at least try to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of those who should not have them. (Arguably that is everyone - who needs a gun that can mow down crowds?)
And nothing is done to address the feelings of exclusion, resentment, and hatred that are behind these massacres. Some woman apparently made a sign with the gay rainbow and the words "Make America Nice Again!" Wouldn't that be "great"?
And I agree with most all you write. many own guns for reasons that I do not identify. Growing-up after the WWII Korean war period some kids identified with the societal "norm" of the day even if slanted toward war and its hideous aspects. In some parts of the world today a gun is the means to (hopefully) protect ones family from violence. Many "accidental" killings with guns are born of total ignorance and incompetence, as you write "a weekly occurrence". The issue of "gun violence" is not an easy or cut and dried one.
Some collected guns of a period when they were, like it or not, a collectible many saw as not a killing tool but more of the product and example of designers like John Browning, pre-eminent of his time - late 1800's into the 20 century. Many don't shoot those guns collected over time and they have little or nothing in common with the assault weapons of today, they are antiques, only being "guns" the same as today's. Museums own guns as such examples.
I don't believe in violence or killing of any sort, including the small creatures in and around my organic garden - all sentient beings (and not). Peoples consciousness can change and many still carry around the remnants of another time. Peace Rosemerry.
One reason why no meaningful legislation will ever get passed in regards to gun control is the fundamental lack of understanding of the details around firearms, and their use and ownership.
I see calls for reinstating the 1994 crime bill, which was meaningless. All that bill did was change the cosmetics of these firearms, it did NOT halt the manufacture or sale of them. You could still buy an AR-15, the only difference was it could not come with a bayonet lug (which probably has never contributed to a crime), a removable muzzle attachment (i.e. a flash hider or a muzzle brake), and a few other relatively harmless cosmetic attributes.
When people call for an AWB, what they probably are thinking is total removal of these weapons from the populace.
Does anyone actually think this is at all remotely possible? There are 10's of millions of these firearms in the hands of 10's of millions of people. Do you think they are all going to line up to turn over weapons they paid up to thousands of dollars for over to local law enforcement or the government?
Do you think any of our current elected officials are going to propose a radical step like forced removal, or do you think any Law Enforcment agency will actually send people out into the fray to carry out confiscations?
Some may, but the vast majority will not, and this does not even start to tackle the issue of illegal firearms that are smuggled in from other countries. Criminals will still have a pipeline to many of those weapons, so that leaves a huge gap in any type of meaningful result.
A terrorist, Foreign or Domestic could still be able to obtain the tools for mass murder.
If anyone really wants to impart practical change in regards to firearms regulation, it is going to come in the form of expanding background checks to require all firearms transactions to go through licensed dealers. contrary to popular belief you cannot just buy a firearm over the internet and have it sent to you house, which I have seen many news outlets make statements alluding to, which is NOT how it happens, which does not help the case of legislation when it is based on false assumptions, It makes it much to easy to tear down.
An individual buying a firearm over the internet and having it shipped to their house is either obtaining it illegally, or is licensed to accept it.
we will also have to fix the current NICS system, if someone has been on the FBI's radar, or has been subject to any domestic abuse charges, or has been clinically admitted to any mental health programs, they should be listed (whether temporary or permanent) as a non qualified purchaser.
Terminology is also at issue here, by definition, assault rifles are select fire weapons.
The public at large has relatively limited access to select fire weapons, they are prohibitively expensive and few can afford them, and most owners have them strictly as a collector or novelty item.
That aside, weapons regulated by the NFA are used in crime very rarely.
I saw an article on this site just yesterday saying these weapons were banned, which is not entirely accurate.
So when you call something an "assault rifle" you are effectively calling for a "ban" on items of very limited availability to the public already, so that is another problem when confronting gun control.
These details actually matter if a real discussion is going to be had.
I agree, you give some people too much freedom, they f*ck it up for everyone else. It always happens. The answer is not to curtail those freedoms but to eliminate the ones that abuse it.