A friend of mine is a nurse. She is prettified at the prospect of being in the first wave of Guinea pigs. I do’nt blame her. This will be a full blown experiment on the general population.
Anyone really believe the promises of a corporation out to be the first to make a monstrous profit?
I suspect most health care workers will not have a choice, be vaccinated or be terminated (unless under a union or other contract)…
In general, I think you are only really protected if you have a religious view against vaccines (~https://www.jems.com/2020/11/06/can-healthcare-workers-be-forced-to-receive-the-flu-vaccine/#:~:text=Employers%20must%20ensure%20that%20they,disagrees%20with%20their%20religious%20beliefs.).
But you are right that unions have fought against mandatory vaccines before: ~https://www.littler.com/files/littler_report_on_covid-19_and_vaccines.pdf, bottom of page 12 has an example I read. That was for the flu - this time it may be very different.
Depends. I’d want to hear what I consider to be unbought 3rd party reviewers first and some have already spoken on the Pfizer vaccine which sounds promising.
This is unrelated to the vaccine, but I just noticed the doctor who was on Ralph Nader’s show (~https://ralphnaderradiohour.com/positive-peer-pressure-the-covid-testing-solution/) who convinced me back in August we should be considering a radically different testing regime as soon as possible is still pushing the idea on his Twitter page (~https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab). I wish there was some way he could convince someone in the Biden administration since he had no luck with Trump I suppose.
I recall @dpearl wasn’t that impressed with the idea. It seemed simple and there is a new plot on his twitter that led me to this page ~https://chris-said.io/2020/11/29/contagiousness-sensitivity/ which I read and still find the idea convincing. I wonder who I should write to lobby for more consideration.
These ideas are really stupid because of very serious problems which could occur. The reason far fewer vaccines are being manufactured these days - and especially why no vaccines were ever successfully competed for the other two SARS causing coronaviruses, is the fact that although everybody is looking for a ‘silver bullet’ in the form of a vaccine taht will magically bring back the pre-coronavirus world and prosperity, vaccines are an approach to coronaviruses that is fraught with risks, because of their tendency to mutate and a phenomenon called antibody dependent enhancement (ADE)
(for example, please read ~https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33178193/ >> full text
“Is Cross-Reactive Immunity Triggering COVID-19 Immunopathogenesis?”
Here is the abstract:
" The serological responses to both SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2 virus have some unique characteristics that suggest cross-reactive priming by other human coronaviruses (hCoVs). The early kinetics and magnitude of these responses are, in some cases, associated with worse clinical outcomes in SARS and COVID-19. Cross-reactive hCoV antibody responses have been detected in both SARS and COVID-19 patients. There is also evidence that pre-existing T cell immunity to common cold coronaviruses can prime the response to SARS-CoV-2. Studies in non-human primates show that SARS-CoV-1 S-protein vaccine-induced antibodies are associated with acute lung injury in macaques challenged with SARS-CoV-1. Here we discuss the potential of cross-reactive immunity to drive the immunopathogenesis of COVID-19 and its implications for current efforts to develop immune-based therapies and vaccines".
Keywords: COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2, antibody-dependent enhancement, immunopathogenesis, cross-reactivity, human coronaviruses
I hope that makes sense to readers.
Basically, the wrong vaccine distributed before adequate testing, could make people much more susceptible to a closely related severe coronavirus disease at some time in the future.
(another issue is that unhealthy but not uncommon environmental chemicals may act as “adjuvants” to prime" the infection, making immune reactions upon subsequent exposures much more severe. This reaction is often taken advantage of by vaccine developers but- it can be caused by chemicals, and there are so many possible interactions and the field is still far from well known to put it mildly)
(This in my understanding actually happened with lab animals and a related coronavirus infection in China. This was reported in English around nine months ago by the Epoch Times and despite their status as a sometimes controversial news source, their Chinese coronavirus coverage has been quite informative and generally has brought information to the table that turns out to be true, because of the papers large Chinese readership they get information that most of the US media never has seen let alone covered. Well, more recent information has verified that this is a very real risk.)
So, we need to be very careful. This ADE phenomenon which is a form of what is called “antigenic original sin” is a very real danger with beta-coronaviruses.
Its well known for this unpredictability. Thats what makes it potentially a real challenge to develop a safe vaccine for it.
Please do some reading on these issues (the above is a good starting point for technically literate readers) and you’ll rapidly see my concerns are well founded.
Which brings me to an other concern, people have been infected with COVID-19 multiple times! So a vaccine may not offer permanent immunity, a new strain could emerge in a few months or years that overcomes whatever resistance remains. the wrong vaccine today could make that strain more virulent than infection would be without it. What I am getting at is that there are major unknowns that shouldn’t be trivialized.
In their rush to be first to market, shortcuts are inevitable. So lets not put our eggs in one basket.
Frankly, none of those things have anything to do with science, they are just tactics being deployed to enable a theft of the planet behind the worlds peoples back, that’s all.
Americans are right to trust none of these entities. Ones chances with the information provided by the scientific establishment generally is a LOT better.
Look at it this way, there was zero chance the people would get their needs met from whomever was annointed out of this election because the rights to us were already sold long ago.
Corporations are demanding immunity from lawsuits for just about everything these days, (also demanding compensation from taxpayers for every regulation) that’s become the US governments main function is giving them absolute immunity from every possible crime or irresponsibility they could possibly commit. Not just here, we’re forcing this smothering blanket of new corporate property rights that cancel all human rights on the rest of the world too.
We’re “nothing to them”.
Problem is that her hospital has no unions
I agree about the 3rd Party review confirmation but doesn’t WARP speed eliminate the time for that?
I appreciate your concerns and your pointers to the literature.
I’m not a virologist, but I’m an author on peer-reviewed papers on viral diagnostics and evolution. (Which makes me relevantly literate but not qualified to provide trustworthy guidance.)
The paper you cite suggests the theoretical possibility of ADE happening with COVID-19. However, the effects of ADE in vaccinated individuals should be rapid and would likely have been detected in existing clinical trials. There doesn’t seem to be such an effect.
Your other concern, that a vaccine to existing strains could lead to a poorer response to future strains, is a type of vaccine-induced enhancement, and wouldn’t show up until exposure to the wrong novel strains takes place. It’s certainly possible. (The article, COVID-19 Vaccine Researchers Mindful of Immune Enhancement, is worth looking at.)
COVID-19 is a poorly understood virus and our understanding of the immune system is seriously limited. So your recommendations of caution are warranted.
We each must perform our individual risk/reward analyses. That means we must be provided the information we need as soon as possible (now).
I’m old and in multiple high risk groups and I’ll take a vaccine as soon as I can. There’s no action without risk – and waiting is itself risky. If I was younger, the risk/reward picture would be different and I might wait. But the vaccines seem to be generally safe in the short term – and that’s all the time I might have.
I’ve spoken with many of my healthcare providers (of varying ages): they all plan to take a vaccine as soon as they can.
Again, all of our situations and personalities are unique. What’s best for me may be unwise for someone else. Moreover, I’m very proactive and aggressive when it comes to my health. I take educated risks and generally prefer to do something sooner rather than later. My health insurance is good and my providers support my decisions. I’m glad vaccines will soon be an option. But no one should be forced to take any newly-developed vaccine or have their employment contingent on doing so.
I’m petrified for her too. Maybe she can get a European or Cuban vaccine? I’d trust them more.
It does seem like a strategy worth exploring. I’ve no idea who to write. Hopefully Nader’s people have been pursuing the idea? They probably do a fair amount of research before they even have a guest on. Thanks for the link.
I thought that scientists and virologists have been warning governments for decades that a pandemic was inevitable. In all those discussions, panels, and studies, the hierarchy of immunization was never discussed and plans made? I find that a little hard to believe. Where does the military rank in order of progression? Where do politicians rank? Where do the rich rank? Will the rich really be the last to get the vaccine? Do the cops in the USA have priority over the nurses in Panama or Kenya? If these questions are just now being discussed, then the rollout is going to be a clusterf**k and more poor will die.
I don’t trust any “expert” ACIP member selected by Alex Azar.
Thank you for the links. I realized I’d heard this doctor in an interview before. From my understanding, while most epidemiologists think a more reliable and cheaper rapid testing regime would be great, they are skeptical for several reasons:
The tests’ utility will be limited by people’s willingness to use it.
Right now, there are no cheap fast tests.
Accuracy is an issue.
False sense of security—a negative one morning could be a positive the next.
There are some other issues in there too, but those are the key critiques I’ve seen.
Thanks for those points that would need to be addressed to win more people over. My layman’s response is:
yes but this is also true of masks and vaccines and this new test regime is just another weapon in the arsenal.
that is an issue. When Dr. Mina spoke in August he described cheap tests like 1-2$. If it’s 10 or more with little chance to reduce, that would have to be addressed. I’ll look into it.
that is addressed in the last link I gave. As long as you restrict the set of people to those that are contagious, accuracy is above 90%. And that is all that matters for the point of this tactic.
I assume that can be addressed with the right messaging. If not, we’ll at least we tried.
Here’s the response I’ve seen from epidemiologists who, I reiterate, all support a stronger testing regime:
Lots of people are still not wearing masks, or wearing them with their noses exposed. Rapid home tests wouldn’t change this, and very likely would exacerbate wreckless behavior like we’ve witnessed at the Trump White House. Why wear a mask if you test negative?
Tests are not cheap yet. It will be a while until they get there. By that time, we are going to be several more months in.
That paper is interesting but there is skepticism on the accuracy of antigen tests.
Messaging is great, but tests can build a false sense of security. We’ve already witnessed how people behave when things look “clear,” despite messaging.
The bulk of epidemiologists I’ve read think behavior modification messaging is still key over a rapid testing regime. Of course they could work in tandem, but consistent messaging on mask wearing and social distancing (easily socially enforced) is way more important. There’s a lot of fear over investing in a technological fix that could actually make behavioral modification essential to slowing the pandemic more difficult to achieve.
I went through the Covid-19 crud in March. Light case. I thank my salads and vitamins and good old plug in to CDC and NIH resources. It still is a proven killer. Stay safe, my friends. I will be at the back of the line for a vaccine because of my experience with the crud, yet I hope that good motives prevail and solving the problem outranks profits.
Nice well wishes Owl, mind if I ask if you have any post-infection symptoms? Don’t answer if it is uncomforable.