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Following Historic Vote, New Orleans to Remove Confederate Monuments

Yunzer,
True, the U.S. cannot really be said to be the victor of the War of 1812. But then, neither can one say that about the Brits.

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Yunzer,
Yes, Stone Mountain screams out for modification, doesn’t it? Perhaps we should add a carving of Benedict Arnold, and then carve-in the words “Traitors to America.” Certainly would tell an accurate story

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Towee,
All true.

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There was NOT A United States of America when Washington and Jefferson rose against the crown. This is a simple fact of history. That they created one with those Articles of Confederation is no different then when the Southern states created the Confederacy with their Articles of the Confederacy. The Southern States went through the same processes.

Washington and Jefferson were traitors againt the entity called the British Empire of which the 13 colonies were a part of. They committed treason against that Country and against the crown.

Benedict Arnold on the other hand was a PATRIOT by definition refusing to rise up against the crown.

If a bunch of people In texas created an Article declaring Texas an independent country , it does not mean that there now a country called Texas and if they took up arms against the USA they would be doing exactly waht Jefferson and Washington did.

Washington and Jefferson were slaveowners and traitors.

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The Brits won-because they kept on impressing sailors from US ships after the War, and prevented the the US from invading Canada. They also burned Washington, which must have been fun.In other words, the Brits attained their war aims, and the Americans didn’t. That’s pretty much a text book definition of victory. And they won this little war, while trouncing Napoleon.

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Jefferson & Washington stole Native American land to form their country and break away from Britain. They owned African American slaves because they couldn’t enslave Native Americans. Most of them died from wars or diseases and were pushed further west. Abe Lincoln was a racist too. He supported mistreatment of Native Americans & said blacks were inferior. Some people say he planned to send the blacks to Latin America, the Caribbean & Africa. Teddy Roosevelt started the Spanish American War & took what few colonies Spain still had in the Americas & Pacific. Woodrow Wilson started WWI. That led to Hitler’s rise to power right before WWII. FDR provoked Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor & brainwashed the American people int thinking he was good. He put Japanese Americans in concentration camps & dropped 2 atom bombs on Japan.

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Flatman,
Most of the sailors which the Brits impressed from American ships were British subjects to begin with; deserters from the war with Napoleon, as well as Brits who had migrated from the U.K. to the U.S. but still remained, under British law, British subjects as well. The remainder were Americans crewing blockade-runners on the way to France, which was at war with the U.K… As an American motive for war, it was bogus.

This “impressment” subject never even came up in the treaty, and since the end of both the war with the U.S. and the end of the war with France meant that there was no longer a shortage of sailors in the U.K., the practice no longer had motive or incentive, and just went away.

The Americans started the war. The British “war aims” at the start were not to have the war. The British embargo of American trade with France was no longer a British war aim as it had already been lifted, so THAT American complaint was also bogus. Shortly thereafter two new war aims developed however: 1. Establish an Indian-controlled buffer zone to the West of the States to impede expansion, and 2. To maintain or expand the Canadian border.

The American war aims, the actual “casus belli,” i.e., impressment and trade with France were bogus to begin with. Attacking Canada was done as the only feasible way to attack the British Empire, not as enmity toward Canada specifically.

Battles happened, and targets and objectives were destroyed on both sides, but with no particular benefit accrued. At the end of hostilities, the Canadian border remained unchanged. Nothing of substance changed, except for the Indians, who lost everything. Both sides just called it off.

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Spoken like a true Canadian…who had to wait another 91 years from our independence for ANY rights from England, Who was at war with Germany in 1914 just because England was ( no home approval wanted or needed) and didnt even achieve a modicum of independence until 1931…150 years after ours. Poke fun away, at least we tried and succeeded. You guys barely tried (Finean revolt of the 1830’s) anyway, Queen of England’s rep the Royal Governor General is still the Commander in Chief of the Canadian Armed Forces…that’s got to chafe…ha cheers!

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Suspira,
I think we are in basic agreement here.

Whenever there is an effort to either create a new Country or overthrow an existing Government by force of arms, its treason by definition, no matter who does it.

Whether that attempt wins or loses, its still treason and always will be, forever.

Saying it again, even if one wins, it was still treason.

If the treasonous effort creates a new Country in the process, but then loses, that new Country is cancelled and becomes null and void.

Benedict Arnold was a unique case in that he was a traitor TWICE, in BOTH directions.

BTW, tell me what exact date you are referring to when you say:
“…when (they) rose up against the crown…,” and then we will know whether there was a USA in place, or not, at that time.

Whether or not they could make that new Country stick, or not stick, is another subject.

Oh you do love to hear yourself rant on just how precious you are. None of what you said changes any of the facts I mentioned.

1>Washington and jefferson owned Slaves.

2>Washington and jefferson were traitors by definition.

Now you can make this about how wondrous the USA is but you know when I get on a plane to fly across the country I am not pulled out of line to have my bum checked for explosives. Nor do I have to worry as you do about that Cop on the street corner shooting me dead because I might have a pocket knife. Nor do we have Politicians calling for all Muslims and Mexicans to be deported. Nor do i feel so insecure I have to change the name of “French fries” to “Freedom Fries”. Nor does our Commander in Chief claim he has the right to assassinate any Canadian just by issuing an executive order. Nor do I have to worry about another mass shooting should I gather in some public square. Nor do our schools have metal detectors or armed cops roaming the hallways laying beatings on kids because they get uppity.Nor do citizens get pulled of planes and questioned because they are speaking Arabic. Nor do we have 2 million plus in jail or 1/5th the population with a Criminal record.Nor do I have to declare bankruptcy just because I can not afford an operation.

You never gained “independence”. All you did was change one group of thugs for another. It was just a change in ownership, nothing more. Meet the new Boss, same as the old boss.

Oh your having acheived “independence” 150 years earlier. It just a number but it means.

As an independent country the USA had slavery for around 90 years.
As an Independent Country Canada never had slavery.

It took Canada 51 years to grant women the right to vote.
It took the USA 142 years to allow the same.

So you have been at it at a lot longer and are still further behind.

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That sounds about right, and puts some flesh on the bones.In the little coastal town in Ct. where I lived for a long time, the Brits fired off a cannon or two, killed a mule and blew up a house. They landed some troops, and shot up the town.Then they got bored, and sailed down to New London, where they burned part of the town and destroyed the shipyards on the Thames.Yes, there is a Thames in Ct.The cannonade I mentioned morphed into the Battle of Stonington, hoary in local legend. There’s a flag in the bank which is alleged to be shot full of musket ball holes, but it looks like moths to me.

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I don’t disagree with your depictions of Jefferson, Washington, et al–but just for the record, it was Harry Truman who dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki–FDR had died a few months before.

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There are some things you can blame on people long after they are dead. There are some things that you can’t blame on them. All of the gun violence that has been happening in the USA is a consequence of the 2nd Amendment. There are a lot more shootings going on now than there were back then. Children now take guns to school. They used to take only knives. Many people stock their homes with guns because they think one is not enough. There are people that don’t keep their guns safely locked up. Their children play with them and die. The shootings may not be intended consequences, they are consequences of that amendment.

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JFK almost started WWIII. Places named after him should be renamed. His picture on $1/2 coins should be replaced or left blank.