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If Donald Trump Is the Symptom... Then What’s the Disease?

Tom the disease is America’s fixation on sex, violence, but, mostly money. All is monetized. The American Deep State regime will only tolerate neoliberal capitalist ‘brothers in arms’.

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I believe they call that capitalism.

Exactly! The war profiteers never lose any wars and you are correct that Tom’s narrative and perspective like so many others… is wrong.

Qzymandias in the museum…

link that should be here is not coming through at all at the moment; what’s the deal?? Paste this with an “h” at the beginning…*


Shelly had the severed legs still standing in 1816, or the poem depicts such at one or another point in time. But I don’t see evidence of it being the case in 1816. There’s a “Burning Man” sculpture of this version (Napoleon?) out there on the net somewhere.

and link that should be here is not coming through at all at the moment either; again, paste with an “h” at beginning*


Shelly’s poem http://www.online-literature.com/shelley_percy/672/

“…stay home and save your neighborhood is probably the most valuable thing any person can do.”

But, with all the information at our fingertips, humans I think wouldn’t be too far amiss if they also tried to help Tom out…name the disease. A whole ideological/spriitual reorientation might be needed. In this age we all must put up our pathetic analyses (which the tech giants use to categorize and identify us) on the net. You are right. We must do something. But a big reorientation couldn’t hurt. Your analysis of the blaming is a lot like mine. I won’t say you need to go read Rene Girard on scapegoating. Not at all. It’s better that we do do something…like you say (the huge quandry over WHAT to do, for example, would come to a simple “partial” solution with single payer, wherein more nurses getting more pay would suddenly find it possible to do for others well). For the moment I think it should also include supporting Sanders…like there’s no tomorrow. Or tommorow could even end up sandier (more sand) than forecasts say.

Hi meantime:
Wow, and thank you for the different sources as I will come back to them tonight., and go through them all. Wow # 2, I didn’t know that about Shelley, but I did read that his wife had kept his heart—and amazingly I also read that although his cremation was on the beach—the heart did not burn. It fits the man though.
sigh— I do go dystopian a lot lately, but I think it’s because hubris of governments causes so many Unnecessary Surprises. Thank you ago for the sites. : )

in the years when he financed Trump Tower, watched his five Atlantic City casinos go bankrupt

Make Atlantic City Great Again!

Qzymandias…if I ever knew who he was, I had forgotten completely by the time I read your comment. Maybe it rang some distant bell, so I had to look it up. In a way it was a very apropos mention on your part. Egypt’s in the news (all bad). We tend to look at ancient Egypt’s buildings/sculptures like having gone to the moon, but if you think about it at all…all of that rested on slaves (projecting on a class of humans)…just like our “disease.” It ended up mostly smashed and covered with sand. I’ve always been half dystopic and half real idealistic. Once I even thought it possible for some moments the Egyptians levitated those blocks the pyramids were built out of. Those brief moments didn’t last. Speaking of “covered with sand,” your reply 4 days ago in message-board-time seems like a whole month. I have no idea why no one else has anything to say here in regard to your allusion to Egypt…your allusion about twice (?) removed from what the crew saw when they came to haul the sculpture. After all, what’s happened to Morsi has everything to do with a disease that has morphed itself all the way into full-on 30s style autocracy. Which brings me to Naomi Klein. Sanders I’ve been supporting mainly because he’s had nerve enough to oppose the MIC, but I see from Klein’s article here the logic of drawing all the issues together is a viable strategy…even without much thought on who-in-particular should win…or at least without obsession in regard to who should.

“In case more proof is required, see the recent devastating elections in India and Australia, where right-wing incumbents won despite predictions to the contrary, as well as the results of the European parliament vote, most notably in France and Italy, where the far right has surged. Again and again, we learn the same lesson: Tepid centrists carrying the baggage of decades of neoliberal suffering are no match for machineries of scapegoating willing to stop at nothing to win.” https://theintercept.com/2019/06/21/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-progressive/

Hi beantime: the poem starts with "I met a traveler from an antique land,"and so the statue might be anywhere in form , or everywhere and only in mens’ minds…but it fits all nations because all nations fall.
Oh the death of Morsi----I wonder what they gave him, because they wanted him as a symbol to die right in court in front of a camera so that the world could see that not only was the man dead, but subliminally , so was the democratic idea! But then, it does seem like many terrorists will meet a bad end—I wonder how Gina the Torturer will meet her end? Or Cheney? The sad things is, that probably at least 50% of people, given the chance, would think they could be a ruler too. And sadly , most probably end up as the bully like Trump. If he really did call off the Iran attack, I’m glad he did, because Climate Crisis is a deadly time to have a war in the Middle East-----and this one will not stay in the Middle East. Lots of Ozymandias types -----and not much time! : (

Hey Stardust,

Klein’s point seems right. Our issues must meld. Someone…some persons…have to start getting across the connections. When they do it’ll establish that the WHOLE KIT & KIBUDDLE IS WRONG. Then, in theory, if Biden has any proximity to the K&K, he won’t be the one. There probably will need to be some kind of delving into quasi involved economics (economics for the million), cause I see polarizing between the capitalism thrashers and guys like Pearlstein on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour yesterday [still available, always available]…coming along.

I think I still go with what I wrote up there six days ago. Christopher Lasch was right. Don’t like putting it in such “pop” terms, but it looks like “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” where it’s a tiered hegemony of narcissists (narcissism) polluting souls (or minds/outlooks take your pick). You could have a contagion where people desired too much LSD. You could have one where they desired too many sessions per week of pot + music. You could have one where it would be OK to make up excuses to do opioids. This time I actually think there’s a reaction against yuppies…whom the Norquist crowd associates with government in general. It’s the perfect time for another wave of Ayn Rand novels, or for these angry/lost folks in the midst of all these American changes…to go to a Trump rally. The liberals failed. Clinton hid all his triangulating, and now there’s the blowback. Obama hid the drone thing. Inequality was rising since then, but now advertisers flaunt all this excess “some” have…and the trianglulated-out get so hot about it, a narcissist like Trump can actually start making narcissist converts.

Back to the region in question, this from 6/20/19 Ali Bakeer…

"Iran is now the target of a relentless diplomatic onslaught by the Saudi-Emirati alliance, backed and encouraged by the US. The reimposition of the US sanctions has pushed the Iranian economy to the brink.

"Meanwhile, Turkey is also experiencing growing political and economic difficulties. The Trump administration has recently escalated its pressure on Ankara over its purchase of the Russian S-400 missile system and threatened sanctions which have affected negatively the already faltering Turkish economy.

"The Saudi-Emirati axis has also sought to influence events in Sudan, Libya, and Algeria, as dangerous upheaval has gripped all three countries over the past few months. It has attempted to undermine popular movements for freedom and democracy with the intention of replicating the notorious Egyptian military dictatorship model." [emphasis mine] https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/saudi-uae-axis-destabilising-plans-gulf-190620174959333.html

Hi beantime:
Oh yes Trump et al have gone a bridge too far—telling nations what products they may and may not buy??? Deciding who they will strive of food and medicine??? I am barely listening to the US news as its so insane----other cultures must be thinking—the hell with the crazy people—and wondering, isn’t it America’s turn to founder now? All they have to do is to turn away from the US being the money of the moment, well O.K. since WW2 but since this nation seems to want to start WW3, maybe nations will just switch en mass… it will be awful for us no doubt, but probably better for the world…and that poem again does back into my mind." Oh what a tangles web we weave. when first we practice to deceive" and of course, " What hath America Wrought? : (

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Time passes, and one keeps sorting things out.

The following is from the 1960 Bollingen edition of Jung’s “On the Nature of the Psyche,” page 131. All items in brackets are things I’ve re-phrased EXCEPT the first message in brackets, which indicates the next sentence (unbracketed) is one I’ve re-phrased. I transcribed this thing to NotePad one word at a time.

426 The current ‘isms’ are the most serious threat in this respect, because they are nothing but dangerous identifications of the subjective with the collective consciousness. Such an identity infallibly produces a mass psyche with its irrestible urge to catastrophe. Subjective consciousness must, in order to escape this doom, avoid identification with collective consciousness by recognizing its shadow as well as the existence and the importance of the archetypes. These latter are an effective defense against the brute force of collective consciousness and the mass psyche that goes with it. In point of effectiveness, the religious outlook of medieval man corresponds roughly to the attitude induced in the ego by the integration of unconscious contents, with the difference that in the latter case susceptibility to environmental influences and unconsciousness are replaced by scientific objectivity and conscious knowledge. [this following sentence I’m rearranging a bit ->] But so far as religion for the contemporary consciousness still means a creed…if it means anything…it has closer affinities with collective consciousness even though its symbols express the once-operative archetypes. So long as the communal consciousness presided over by the Chruch is objectively present, the psyche, as said, continues to enjoy a certain equilibrium. [In any event,] it constitutes a sufficiently effective defense against inflation of the ego. But once Mother Church and her motherly Eros fall into abeyance, the individual is at the mercy of any passing collectivism and the attendant mass psyche. [She] succumbs to social or national inflation, and the tragedy is that [she] does so with the same psychic attitude which had once bound [her] to a church.

Of course, the “catastrophe” is going after the scapegoat, which to my mind jives with the late René Girard’s thinking.

[Disclaimer re my endorsement of this book. There is a profound statement on page 132, and one I don’t agree with on the same page. There are things he wrote at the bottom of page 134 just about as clear as mud. IMO he could have done better; can’t imagine where he gets off (got off) coming across in so cornfused a manner.]

With this article by Tom Englehardt there’s the desire to pinpoint the disease. To vastly simplify a thing, I would agree with Christopher Lasch’s take [nearly ancient by now] that when elite schools got computer “labs” (and no one else did) it amped up meritocracy’s default inflation voltage (a heady era in more ways than one). This was (as with Jung’s description) the inflation-at-one-end-and-scapegoating-at-the-other-phenomenon, at least the phenomenon I read in Jung though he doesn’t quite spell it out. The time eventually came where the inflated ones went on a tear scapegoating government social programs…strangely paralleled by less and less questioning of the MIC’s claims regarding who out there were our “enemies” (measure it by questioning during the Vietnam era). They were so convinced that they took the then science of gerrymandering to an even more scientific level. This to me is at least one corner turned where they embarked on the path to becoming the world’s most dangerous organization (Chomsky has said this (but, since he said it, Dems are now in the running…the disease progresses)). Judging by what’s on Fresh Air these days it’s a paradox the best coverage I ran into on this great scientific leap forward for the Pubs was at this link https://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482150951/understanding-congressional-gerrymandering-its-moneyball-applied-to-politics

Still, I support Bern.

Hi beandtime:
Thank you for this. I think I had heard of Bollingen when someone gave me a bunch of tapes from Joseph Campbell! which he did for PBS He really admired Jung too. I like Englehardt’s idea of pinpointing a disease because that helps me to focus on where its going—and thank you too for the Fresh Air info—and I do love Bernie! : )

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You end the INF treaty like some sort of threat, and you move toward something else that’ll make the world just as uninhabitable as heat.

If climate must be the first concern, then end war to remove the cost concern. The big mental block is…we can’t go over into that pile of money (defense), because terrorists are about…and because how the wars came about combined with how to stop them is too difficult to dwell on. So trust Big Brother Trump. Keep investing in Lockheed Martin, and if now he says we need a strike here or a strike there…by all means go ahead. But, at the same time for the base, they’re still calculating that Trump might have a tad more savy than the Dems keeping us out of quagmires. Well, in the first place you have to show them that where he’s going militarily at the present moment is different than the talk he talked at the beginning. And the second thing you have to show them is that even if John Kerry were the one wanting to put more pressure on Russia (like Trump is now) that Kerry’s program to pull it off WOULD BE just as irrational as Trump’s. This would take a lot of persuading and school’n, but you would be speaking TRUTH TO BASE.

“Crowding out” (re the money pile) is pretty well critiqued these days; but IMO, when it comes to defense, it could actually be happening [defense spending crowding out everything else; usually, though, this phrase refers to public spending vs what’s available for private to borrow]. Rand Paul and Gabbard pretty much point to the vast resources unfairly gobbled up by defense. But, if you look at even the current economy, you can see with the vast sums gone to said gobbler…you can see, when you know the funds, that the economy somehow survives when you thought it couldn’t have on what’s left. Well, how this happens is what the Chicago school and the obsessed stingy dinosaur deficit hawks do not bother to explain. Pay no attention to that! Pay no attention to that, because it destroys their default argument.

Everyone can look at the Yemen war and realize it’s a waste of capital for Saudi Arabia. Or Israel’s war on Gaza. Yet, I may nevertheless try over and over to convince you 1) that so are strikes on Iran 2) that so is the Bannon-recommended brinksmanship in the South China Sea, and 3) that so is brinksmanship WITH RUSSIA in terms of hauling more and more Aegis Ashore missile systems over to Europe.

Yes, despite the complexity, how the wars came about and how we stop them must be faced. Then that dollar black hole is removed, and there are fewer excuses not to fund green and single payer.

Trump preached no more quagmires, but then turned around and threatened to “bomb the shit out of” all kinds of cities [granted, the first method that worked with ISIL was Russia destroying the roads over which ISIL exported oil; and trust me there are alternatives like that all along the way, even negotiating alternatives].

400 Congresspersons were as deluded back in May as Ronald Ray Gun was vis a vis Central America 33 years ago https://thegrayzone.com/2019/05/24/bipartisan-war-congress-trump-syria-iran-russia-hezbollah/

Part of the disease is a bad argument, which is so default no one thinks to address it?