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In Debate, Hillary and Bernie Define Two Poles


#1

In Debate, Hillary and Bernie Define Two Poles

Ruth Conniff

It was, as Martin O’Malley said, a very different debate from the Republicans’: no racist remarks, not immigrant-bashing, no attacks on women, no clowning or pandering to religious bigotry, and a much more serious policy discussion.

In their closing remarks, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton summed up voters’ choice.

Bernie told the CNN audience what very few candidates, he noted, would admit:


#2

What amazes me is the sudden change in the universe where Hillary calls herself a progressive and exclaims that we need to do something about the 1%.

Excuse me but is this the same hawkish former Sec of State who acts jovial about bombing and expanding military conflict? Is this the same former corporate lawyer who sat on the board of Walmart for 5 years (where the 1% envy the wealth of the .001% who were sitting in that room)? The Hillary that takes oligarchy pac money and who knows which side her toast is caviared on?

Could someone explain how come Hillary gets to call herself a progressive and nobody laughed out loud?


#4

Hillary "held up under attack for her votes on Iraq ???? Hillary won "first prize"?
I watched the whole debate, and I am surprised at Ruth Conniff (usually an astute observer and analyst, with great progressive values).

How could Hillary's performance outdistance her record? She is a war-monger, a loyal devotee of the Israeli state and its backers in the US. Her Wall Street banker funders (read Nomi Prins on "The Clintons and their Banker Friends"). await their pay-offs in a new Clinton Administration.
Bernie did well, and I agree with Ms. Conniff that he is changing the terms that other Dems must run on this year.
I hope people know that the loyalties of Hillary, by her own neo-liberal record, are with the 1%.


#5

A thoughtful analysis. And yes, Bernie is definitely "making a dent in the American people's idea of what's possible." He was particularly strong on climate change being the number one national (and planetary) security challenge. Webb and Chafee can be dismissed but O'Malley seemed more than capable.

Back to Bernie - my guess is that his goal really is to change people's sense of what is possible and that he has no great ambition to actually be president. In the next few months, my hope is that he continues to expand that idea of the possible. The media and the political establishment have long supported the myth that there is never enough money to do what the 99 per cent need ( like surviving a rapidly changing climate) but money is not real in the way that air and water are. It is simply the system through which society apportions its resources and goods. The more that Bernie makes a dent in this myth, the more people will see what can be done.


#7

Jill Stein adroitly addresses this, and more, on today's "Democracy.now" program, Amy Goodman's show.


#8

His lockup rate in Baltimore is a testament to everything that's wrong and racist about the new American Gulag, a/k/a prison state under the guise that a rise in civilian-style military blowback incidents is somehow tantamount to a "War on Terror."


#9

Thanks, I'll check it out. It was something to see last night when she said that. I actually did laugh out loud. Bernie has gotten the Dems to start talking like the democrats of old. Not that I think Hillary is a progressive but the whole tenor of the debate was in response to Bernie's anti-oligarchy stance. They never would have mentioned the disparity between the rich and the rest (as I call it) or single payer and so forth. Bernie has made a big splash after all.


#10

I couldn't even watch the "debate" and am still in disbelief at the number of people identifying as "progressives' who are on board with Hillary if Bernie doesn't win the nomination. Because, you know, that other party is just so much worse.


#11

He has made a big dent. He has gotten so many issues into the mix already but I don't want him to just introduce progressive issues into the discussion... I want him to win the office!

What happened to Hillary on climate change? Maybe I missed the part where she spoke about those 500 million solar roofs (A potty break waits for no man said the old coot). Did she talk about that? Or even mention it?

I saw Bernie's short bit on climate change and Hillary's (but I guess I missed the few seconds where those 500 million solar roofs were brought up because it seemed to me that they weren't mentioned)


#12

In all honesty I think Hillary is better than the Republicans (even you must believe that she is better than Trump I hope). The fact is that like Bernie said, not voting only helps elect republicans. Its true because conservatives feel voting is like a religious observance whose intended purpose is to defeat the liberals. So in low turnout elections, republicans do better than they should.

Hillary addressed this issue by saying that republicans don't even believe that climate change happens. She's right. If the choice is between her and one of them, vote for the one who will do something about climate change... That's my twenty cents (two cents adjusted for inflation).


#13

If that is the case he better keep it secret, because those crowds in the thousands will dwindle to nothing, along with the well of small donations, if that gets out. That has been the meme of the Counterpunch and Green crowd from the beginning, a variation on the Sheepdog meme, or better, red herring.


#14

You're right, it's not a 'war on terror' but rather a case of the warmongers [police] terrorizing We the People.


#15

If Bernie makes it to the primaries I think I am going to have to vote for him simply b/c I truly cannot bear the thought of this Clinton in power -- we've had far too many years of presidents that are actually way too far to the right compared to we peons (from Bubba thru the Obadrone) and I'm afraid this country can't take even one more.


#18

I don't believe for one moment that Bernie is doing this to bring voters to Hillary, call it what you wish. That is the way I see it.


#20

I will not vote for that woman. There is an old joke about the Chicago Cubs, two fellows are having a drink at a local pub, one fellow says, did you hear hell froze over, the other fellow answers, my God the Cubs won the World Series. I feel the same about Hillary, only when Hell freezes over does she get my vote.


#21

I snort-laffed when that comment flew outta her mouth.


#22

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#23

"That said, Hillary Clinton is a formidable debater and a formidable candidate. She appeared the clear winner in the debate.."

Except in every online poll after the debate. In those Bernie won by a landslide.

"However, before analyzing the responses from Sanders, Clinton, and others, let's look at some informal data. Something called the "internet" loved Bernie Sanders after the debate, and although the following surveys were composed of thousands of people (who will most likely be voting in 2016), many skeptics might overlook the data showing Sanders clearly won. They'll say that the over 100,000 people who took the CNN or Time surveys weren't asked the right questions, or that FiveThirtyEight didn't ordain the results with polling holy water.

Nonetheless, human beings have spoken and America should take notice. The CNN Facebook Poll late Tuesday evening at one point showed 80% of voters picking Bernie Sanders to be the winner. In typical American media fashion, most people on the CNN Facebook page thought Sanders had won, even as glowing reviews from several CNN writers had Clinton winning. In addition to CNN, online polls throughout the country had the man who saved Andrea Mitchell ahead on all score cards.

Time also had a Democratic debate poll late Tuesday evening. From a survey of 106,788 at the moment I voted, 64% of respondents felt Bernie Sanders had won the Democratic debate. At the MSNBC poll, 84% felt Bernie Sanders was victorious at the time I cast my vote. Over at Slate.com, 75% of respondents felt Bernie won the debate."


#24

A vote for Hillary is a vote for Wall Street. It's an endorsement of politics as usual. It's another shove to the right for the Democratic party.

If Bernie isn't on the ballot progressives should vote for Stein. At least that way we won't be complicit in Hillary's attempts to impose the will of the empire abroad and her destruction of the social safety net at home.

Does anyone actually believe Clinton's progressive bleating will last for a second after she's enshrined in the White House?


#25

I got the impression that Hillary was very well rehearsed and Bernie was more natural. Not that personality should make much difference in the selection of our next Presidential employee, when what we should be looking at is their voting records.

Will our next President-employee be taking orders from all the people, or from Wall Street and billionaires?