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In Display of 'Actual Sociopathy,' Trump Reportedly Asked CIA Why Drone Didn't Also Kill Target's Family


#190

Let’s ignore the coverage expansion. It’s the loss that counts, I see. Oh, and let’s ignore what happened to Medicaid and rural community health clinic funding. Oh, and what number without healthcare were non-citizens (hint: approximately 20%)? And what’s happening to coverage in states that are restricting access to Medicaid (not Obama’s fault)? I’m sure a public option would have resolved what is happening in states, given Supreme Court precedent. Course, that would’ve been Obama’s fault too.

You are having a tough go, I’m sorry for that. But if you can’t respect me and want to act like a jerk, I can say cluck too. I am going to contribute to conversations how I see fit when I actually know what I’m clucking talking about, even if it doesn’t fit your favorite narrative. Cluck!


#191

One thing you can never refute, except to insult by deeming such argument a “myth” is the degree to which ACA was written by the healthcare industry, and how ACA left in place, by design, control of the healthcare system by Healthcare Inc Monopoly.

I have never once denied whatever good outcomes from ACA that you cite. Not once.

Keep trying to beat me over the head with that dishonest argument.

As for acting like a jerk, you are the one who threw the first punch here calling my argument a myth.

The reporter must be another one of those jerks who can’t read beyond their own nose.

Here…another such clueless jerk…

I’m all about mythology.

Cluck.

Oh what the heck…I mean, I just can’t see beyond my nose, and am just such a jerk when reacting to someone calling all of this evidence that supports my arguments, mythology.

Excerpt from next posted article.

Hospital industry lobbyists, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of alienating the White House, say they negotiated their $155 billion in concessions with Mr. Baucus and the administration in tandem. House staff members were present, including for at least one White House meeting, but their role was peripheral, the lobbyists said.

Several hospital lobbyists involved in the White House deals said it was understood as a condition of their support that the final legislation would not include a government-run health plan paying Medicare rates — generally 80 percent of private sector rates — or controlled by the secretary of health and human services.

“We have an agreement with the White House that I’m very confident will be seen all the way through conference,” one of the industry lobbyists, Chip Kahn, director of the Federation of American Hospitals, told a Capitol Hill newsletter.

I think I’ll pause for a rest, so I can contemplate how grateful I should be for the ACA.


#192

It is a myth, sorry. Key in that hyperbolic Huffingtonpost “report” is the Senate Finance Committee, run by Max Baucus, who was always against a public option and never for it. This wasn’t secret, the inflated “reporting” in that article not withstanding. A whip count in August of 2009 registered 43 votes for a public option, not enough. If Obama wanted a bill passed, he wasn’t going to get one done by crossing Baucus, or Kent Conrad for that matter, who I feel was more responsible for the key problem with the law as it is—weak subsidies for private insurance purchases. More to the point, a public option did get through the House well after the negotiations cited in the Times 2009 article on healthcare negotiations.

And the bill wasn’t written by the health industry either. It was separate pieces of legislation developed in multiple committees in the House and Senate (Bernie was on a key committee). That’s why the 5-1 patient ratio band that insurers were adamantly against was in it. That’s why a public option came out of the House. That’s why the Sanders supported amendment on rural community health centers was in it, with a huge dose of public financing to boot. If that’s your case, FDR was a sellout on Social Security since he negotiated a portion of the bill directly with the insurance industry and the American Farm Bureau.

The biggest problem for the public option was conservative Democrats in the Senate. As opposed to the “report” you cite, they were what killed the public option. Obama could say what he wanted to, but if he wanted a bill passed, he needed their votes. Even then, it was ultimately Senator Lieberman (complete asshole) that killed all proposals, including the Medicare buy-in that Reid thought he had a deal on.

In fact, I think Obama’s role gets too much attention with respect to the ACA. One of his faults is that he was too deferential to Baucus, who let the bill get hung up in committee while being strung along by Chuck Grassely. The administration remained outside congressional negotiations, “aloof” as was reported, and the bill nearly died without it stepping in to resolve disputes late in the game. I suspect that Times article was partly a reaction on the part of the administration to criticisms from certain quarters of Congress and health advocacy organizations in this regard.


#193

Nope, I’m not. I’m recalling the few voices saying anything about Obama’s drone program when he was doing it and yet the extreme loud, vocal, and venomous outrage when Trump asks about doing the same thing.

I’m also thinking about all my socially liberal friends on facebook who go after Trump non-stop on stuff like this and yet continually post wistfully sad memes about missing Obama.


#194

There you go, pick your rationale. I mean they are all there. A sampling of sorts.

The fact that Corporate State Democrats made damn sure a public option wasn’t going to be in the works is completely consistent with Obama’s actions even IF the specific assertion or “hyperbole” isn’t factual.

The fact of the matter is, Obama did NOT publicly make a case for the public option during the time that it would have mattered.

I mean, wonk me to death already in support of this hideous healthcare system called the ACA.

And your contention that the bill was not in large part written by the Big Insurers is propaganda. The fact that it came out of separate Committees proves what point exactly?

Enjoy some more mythology by jerks who can’t read beyond their own nose.

https://sunlightfoundation.com/2010/02/12/the-legacy-of-billy-tauzin-the-white-house-phrma-deal/


#195

Just because people negotiate over a bill doesn’t mean it was authored by Big Pharma. My gawd. Just look at how many amendments were accepted into the bill. Eight major House committees drafted portions of the House legislation, while in the Senate, three major committees wrote the legislation, including one Bernie sat on. Would you like me to name more provisions the health industry did not like? Because there are a bunch, and they wouldn’t be in any bill they authored. Ignore that fact though, it’s inconvenient. As I say, I guess Roosevelt sold out over Social Security and Johnson sold out over Medicare. As I note above, Roosevelt specifically negotiated with American Farm Bureau and insurers. Social Security was sellout trash authored by corporate goons! It did exclude a large swath of workers, after all.

Any compromise legislation is going to have sucky things about it and be imperfect. I was disappointed by elements of the ACA too, but not all provisions I liked had congressional support. But I also don’t live in progressive fantasy land where we act like standard legislative behavior is the biggest fucking sellout deal in the world. I also don’t look at a portion of a huge piece of legislation, ignore the legislative record, subsequent legal and political events, and pretend it’s all a corporate sellout and lay it at the feet of people who constructed the largest expansion of public healthcare financing since the 1960s. No legislation is perfect, and that’s the case when it faces a substantial sustained opposition. After all, the tea party groups organized around the country to attend congressional member meetings were about stopping the public option because it was viewed as a government takeover of healthcare.


#196

Well my gawd!!!

You went so far as to lend legitimacy to the Koch Bros Tea Party staged raids on town halls. Oh my gawd.

Corporate State Democrats did as well, and they were eager as well to add credence to the propaganda that in the end, they had to consider such resistance politically.

Oh poppycock. They knew dam well that it was all just a sham, they knew the funding behind those front groups, and they knew ultimately how it would help them beat the public option.

Did Obama rush out to correct the record? Well of course not, as the people working to negotiate the deal, the majority of which were representatives of corporate interests had already determined that the public option was going to be dead anyway, so all the better

Please please point to me where Obama fought for the public option publicly. Go ahead, search.

I’m certain as Lieberman (PNAA) and other Corporate State Democrats move to privatize further Medicare, and Social Security, you will be right there with them defending all of it.

But of course it is only Ryan that wants to go in that direction right?

Project for the New American Austerity of course doesn’t matter one bit. Not one bit.

Wonk wonk wonk wonk.


#197

Chicken logic: Social Security is a sellout program and so is Medicare. To this day, certain workers are excluded from both programs either by age or industry. Corporations wrote those bills because administrations negotiated with industry principles, which never ever happens ever in the glorious land of crazy chickens. Cluck!

I’m just glad you weren’t around to see Roosevelt sell people out. Goddamn corporate whore let industry have input into the Fair Labor Standards Act too! Sellout! It only covered 700,000 workers initially. What trash! I ain’t gonna defend that clucking corporate whore.


#198

Find one instance where I have made that argument about Social Security or Medicare. I’ve made arguments to the contrary in fact, in support of those programs.

You piling on of arguments and “logic” that I haven’t made is dishonest to the core.

I think you have shown your true colors.

You will predictably defend the indefensible, the corporate takeover of governance in this country.

Wonk away. I’m crazy? I’m happy to be labeled that according to your worldview.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/10/01/obamacare-enriches-only-the-health-insurance-giants-and-their-shareholders/#6f83a2eb3077

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2014/10/29/obamacare-brings-wellpoint-even-bigger-than-expected-profits/#6066bab077b3

More voices from “extreme leftists”…

I’m sure that will make your day! Enjoy, you crazy wonker.


#199

No, I’m throwing your logic back in your face. You see, every clucking piece of what we’d call progressive legislation you can apply your logic to. Administrations, congressional committees, negotiated with industries. That means we got sold out! That’s why Social Security didn’t include a portion of the work force initially, the Fair Labor Standards Act only applied to 700,000 workers. Roosevelt was a corporate sellout that let industry write those bills and didn’t do what we wanted totally and completely. Corporate legislation.

Yeah, yeah, I know that certain committee chairs in Congress weren’t excited about expanding Social Security in certain industries, but I’ll ignore that. I’ll also ignore exemptions negotiated in the Fair Labor Standards Act too. Roosevelt wrote corporate whore legislation. Easier to just say that.


#200

Look, I can’t help the fact that you are fucking blind to what is happening in this country.

Crisis? What crisis?


#201

I ain’t blind to anything.


#202

To you, it’s just a natural state of political affairs.

DLC? No consequence whatsoever! And for goodness sake, one can never assume any political motive of corporate subservience over the good of the masses. No sireeeee!!! Nope, not at all.

Clinton was just doing her thing at 29,000 dollars a day for two years making the rounds of corporations doing speeches.

I mean, ascribe a motive of corporate subservience to this? My goodness no!

You’re not blind, I was being too generous.

Enjoy the last word.


#203

To buttress your point about the sociopath Obama…

He’s a real peach, that Obama.


#204

You are right. That’s why I agree on Social Security etc. As I’ve pointed out, that corporate stooge Roosevelt negotiated with regulated industries and sold us the cluck out. In fact, the entire New Deal was a sellout in that it propped up industries and benefitted corporate goons like Kaiser, etc. Hell, we’ve been sold out for years!


#205

From a speech FDR ended up not giving to the Convention leading up to his third term.

In the century in which we live, the Democratic Party has received the support of the electorate only when the party, with absolute clarity, has been the champion of progressive and liberal policies and principles of government.

**The party has failed consistently when through political trading and chicanery it has fallen into the control of those interests, personal and financial, which think in terms of dollars instead of in terms of human values.**

The Republican Party has made its nominations this year at the dictation of those who, we all know, always place money ahead of human progress.

The Democratic Convention, as appears clear from the events of today, is divided on this fundamental issue. Until the Democratic Party through this convention makes overwhelmingly clear its stand in favor of social progress and liberalism, and shakes off all the shackles of control fastened upon it by the forces of conservatism, reaction, and appeasement, it will not continue its march of victory.

It is without question that certain political influences pledged to reaction in domestic affairs and to appeasement in foreign affairs have been busily engaged behind the scenes in the promotion of discord since this Convention convened.

Under these circumstances, I cannot, in all honor, and will not, merely for political expediency, go along with the cheap bargaining and political maneuvering which have brought about party dissension in this convention.

It is best not to straddle ideals.

In these days of danger when democracy must be more than vigilant, there can be no connivance with the kind of politics which has internally weakened nations abroad before the enemy has struck from without.

It is best for America to have the fight out here and now.

I wish to give the Democratic Party the opportunity to make its historic decision clearly and without equivocation. The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time.

By declining the honor of the nomination for the presidency, I can restore that opportunity to the convention. I so do.

Chicken logic in bold.

This…The party has failed consistently when through political trading and chicanery it has fallen into the control of those interests, personal and financial, which think in terms of dollars instead of in terms of human values.


#206

I’m familiar, thanks. Are you familiar with any of the legislative activities behind his legislation that grew far more progressive in later years? Because you would’ve thought FLSA etc. were the worst corporate sellouts in history. Some leftists said so at the time, you know. In fact, some unions didn’t like New Deal legislation because they thought it propped up management power. But we know, negotiation in any major legislation means corporate authorship. That FDR, the ultimate corporate whore, softly sell us out while petting us with kind words, just like that fellow Obama. They’ve been selling out true progressivism since the 1930s!


#207

This country has been an empire in the making since the beginning. And empires are corrupt by the nature of how they build off of other people. 1st it was the natives and all the excuses as to why we desired and should take their land. When you can act like you are innocent while exterminating a people, you are exceptional.

That term has always bothered me, what we have been exceptional is in creating the most powerful empire ever. And empires are corrupt by their very nature of having to steal from others to build.

Actually empires always fall from within, they collapse because they can’t contain the corruption enough. Internal strife happens and they crumple.

There are many lies told about US history in order to make us seem exceptional. One example here is about WWII. We are the heroes who defeated the nazis. We fought against the evil nazis to save the jews. That is what we tell the children. And it is complete bullshit.

When the jews were fleeing Germany, the west knew what was happening, why the jews were fleeing. And no one wanted the jews in their country. The US forced many jews back to Germany. Anti-semetism was strong in the US at that time. We didn’t want them here and we didn’t care what happened to them.

What forced us into war was the fact that the US and Japan wanted the same territory for their empires and for decades before the war, we had been at odds with them. We opposed them at every point and made claims for the same islands. We aided the russians in their war against Japan. Even sent troops.

And our military force was growing in the pacific. Japan couldn’t keep pace easily enough with our forces. Which is why they decided upon a surprise attack to destroy as much as they could of our fleet. Though they hurt us badly, they failed to destroy our carriers. And the carriers turned the tide.

That was the real cause of WWII. Once we went to war with Japan, Germany declared war on the US and we responded in kind. It was not some noble cause for us, it was to protect the empire and to be able to keep growing. Of course these days we are taught that it was about fighting evil.

What is ignored is that at the time before the war, we had enslaved the population of the Philippines. They were revolting against the dictators that the US put into place and we had troops there to subdue the population. It just turns out that the Japanese were even a worse master than we were. After WWII we promised them their freedom, but instead installed another dictator over them.

And the philippines is just one country, the middle east after WWI, we made deals with the French and British to rule the middle east and install dictators who would be friendly to us. Like the royal Saudi family who still rules. It is why we still support the Saudis in spit of them spending the most money in the middle east upon religious fanatics who them hate the US. Forget the Iranians, they are in a poor second in terrorism. Their beef is with Israel and the Saudis.

And The reason why Israel exists in the 1st place is because the US, France, and Britain hated the jews so much that they didn’t want them in their country. So the grand idea was to create a country where the jews could go and leave those countries. Russia was happy to also agree with that. And until a few decades ago, the evangelicals and conservatives hated the jews. Then the end days movement gathered strength and according to that prophesy, Israel has to exist. And when the end days come, the jews will die or convert to christianity. Which is why they love Israel so much.

I understand Ponyboy’s frustration, my idealism has been destroyed by the reality of what will happen, not what can. I would love to see such a movement succeed, but I lived through the 60s’ and we had such glorious dreams. Equal rights for all, an end to poverty, a fairer society. We stopped one war, but another started. And equal rights never happened, poverty is worse, and we certainly are not a fairer society.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” Upton Sinclair. And most americans’ salary depends upon a person not understanding. To do so and try to act upon that means risking their job, their standing in a community, their friends, etc. Most people want security, more than freedom. Freedom is a grand idea, but it means a constant fight against those who wish just to be secure.

I know, because that is what I did. I worked in a skilled nursing home for over 21 yrs. When I was retiring, I got my final review. The 1st paragraph- Skip is the most stubborn person who has ever worked here and in spite of all efforts, he insisted upon doing things his way. We were not able to change him. I have always been proud of that 1st paragraph.

The 2nd stated that Skip was the best advocate of patient rights and in taking care of them that we have. And I never would have been that latter, if I accepted the system and kept my mouth shut.

So I know what it is like to fight against the system, I didn’t win. I didn’t change the system. I only fought against it. So I know how difficult it is to change the system. I am almost 68 yrs old and I know what it is like to piss into the wind, pardon my french. I’m in my corner with the cut man, who says throw in the towel. I have lost my optimism that I had when I was young. We were going to change the world, yet BLM still has to be, METOO has to be, all of it still the same old stuff.

It took bloody decades of fighting for the unions to win any concessions. And unions have been broken to a mere shell of what they used to be. And what they gained is steadily being lost. The teachers’ unions might be winning right now, but what about a decade from now? Will they still fight? And will they be all alone? The children of the 60s’ fought until the late 70s’ and then stopped. That is what happens to movements, they are either bought off for awhile or they wither and die.

History repeats itself. The rich lose some battles, but they have never lost the war.


#208

Skip,

I personally am all for a full blown Revolution, but just as the majority continue to vote for those parties who would keep us on a constant War footing, spreading Death and Human Suffering, they do not have the stomach for the energy needed to Revolt.

As in most other societies, the numbers of those who have reached an enlightened sense of what is needed in a peaceful, progressive nation, and vote accordingly, are generally very small.

I reject the premise that those of us who see better leaders in 3rd party candidates, and vote for them as “pissing in the wind.”

I’ll pray for all of those who are too short sighted and used to voting for Evil, that they may one day achieve a belief that voting for Evil is not in their best interest.


#209

Let’s not forget the other three past presidents of late. Corporate whores Clinton, Bush, and Trump. G