Ordinarily I am out of sympathy with the sort of disappointed right-winger who makes excuses for Trump because the complete fascist program hasn’t (yet) been instituted. Poor Liddle Donnie, or so goes their dirge, is an involuntary captive of the Washington Swamp, the Deep State, or whatever their nonce term for “pushback by relatively sane people” is. As Harry Truman said, the buck stops in the Oval Office, and the people thwarting Trump are frequently his own appointees. I used to think there was no crying in right-wing zealotry.
Exactly on the money Mike, thank you! This analysis/commentary should be required reading for all.
The overt subversion of our republic by the “favored nation” as Washington warned against in his farewell address has now become a conspiracy by the Israeli Zionist right and American treasonous sycophants and religious nutters.
We have been attacked, betrayed, manipulated and lied-to, spied-on, and had our electoral processes “meddled” with numerous times by Israel and its agents, and would have far-better relationships and allies world-wide to end the deceitful “special relationship” BS propaganda falsely claimed between the US and Israel.
We would be far better-off in every way to break those claimed “unbreakable bonds” shackling our foreign policy to the Israeli right, AIPAC, Netanyahu, and call to account Congressional and other figures that seem to hold first-loyalty to that foreign power and its racist expansionism and “religious” extremism…
Hi Emphyrio: Yes, it was a great commentary as to what ails America, Israel and the world. I am confused as to why many Christian zealots, think that when Jerusalem falls and Jesus comes back, then there will be a thousand year war. The Prince of Peace comes back and fights a loooooooong war. That just invalidates all that the Prince of Peace is said to stand for.
And too, Jerusalem has fallen hundreds of times in history—with all 3 religious groups, Jewish, Muslim and Christian taking a turn. I throw my hat in with IRAN, as the world’s first major empire—they learned long ago, that even the top of the heap, is no place to be in a constantly changing world. WAR is an expensive business—and I am surprised that the U.S. military has not yet figured that out----although WE the People certainly have!
I was gliding along here with Mike agreeing with a lot of what he was writing and then he pulls out this Clintonian lie. Whatever is wrong with Trump (there’s a lot wrong) it is not true he went out of his way to not condemn them. What happened is the Clinton friendly corporate media went out of their way to never report it when Trump did condemn them.
Why this lying? Because the Clinton wing of the Party and the subservient media are not about the truth, they are about beating Trump and they’ll use any method, true or false, to do so. They have sold the nation that is Blue or leans Blue on the idea that Trump is a racist pig who supports Nazis. They will report anything that supports that, fail to report anything that might contradict it, and spin anything that can be spun to support the narrative. They aren’t interested in truth, they are interested in promoting the narrative, one that has been shown quite useful in their 'We are good guys, He is the bad guy" our team versus their team battle.
Then Mike really alienated me when he joined in the Clintonian propaganda that even the white working class folks who voted for Trump are a bunch of red neck, thick skulled, idiotic, selfish, buffoonish deplorables. They are hopeless and just to be despised. That’s not how we move forward. That’s now how we get the working class to vote progressive. All that is is ceding the white working class to Trump forever.
Here’s proof that Trump DID condemn those Tiki carrying Neo-Nazis. The press just ignored it and twisted what he did say. But then even here there are people who want to believe, like Mike, that there are no decent people who might wear MAGA hats- they’re all deplorables too, not just the ones who shout Nazi slogans.
Thank you, Mr. Lofgren, for saying what needs to be said.
Wow. Great writing and good humor.
Thanks for sharing the vid. You convinced me. We progressives should NOT lower ourselves to the lying standards of the reich wing trump followers.
The coalition is surely weird enough in an absolute sense, but it has been Washington-normal for a long time.
The neoconservative plan to invade or ruin country after country in the Middle East has been public for something like 20 years now and by all indications in play for decades prior. One could simply imagine that the planners or their allies did not mean what was said, but that would not explain why government had been following and has continued over the past couple decades to follow the described policies.
This was part of the administrations of Reagan, Bush I, Clinton I, Bush II, Obama, and now Donald Trump. Lofgren is correct to acknowledge, at least this once, that a “Washington quagmire” has something to do with the ongoing quagmires directed from Washington. And he does mention some names. He misses all the Democrats and most of the Republicans.
And why try to reduce “Joe Lunchbox,” whomever he means to caricature by the bigoted bon mot, to a cartoon? Are these workers who cannot afford to indulge their culinary fancies at midday? Is there a lack of education implied? Are they all white? All male? I would have to presume, but Lofgren apparently thinks that I will be willing to do so, since he offers nothing further towards definition.
What are we presuming these days about people who cannot join us for lunch?
Meanwhile, there are no named Democrats in Lofgren’s quagmire, and few named Republicans. Those named are “weird,” despite following the pattern of both Democratic and Republican administrations. I suppose that in an absolute sense, I have no quarrel with that. But weird has obviously been pretty normal in Washington.
Without an actual list of leaders who are actually managing these problems, are we to imagine that Joe Lunchbox and his cartoon horde have marched to take over Washington? This appears to be one of the reasons Lofgren gives. I have to imagine that I am not qualifying his views quite correctly here, but it seems to me that he might do more in this direction himself. Who is Joe Lunchbox, and why does Mike Lofgren imagine that he is running the country?
It seems more likely to me that we ought to look to the wealthy magnates who pay for influence in Washington, and look to their minions. But this means naming Democratic and Republican officials, does it not?
Writing an actual antiwar article at least should involve exposing crimes and motives or discussing at least some of the many that have been exposed, and hopefully providing some sense of how the perpetrators can be run from office or hamstrung–figuratively, for choice.
Avoiding this leaves readers with the unpleasant business of guessing at motives, though I don’t suppose it is always necessary to do so publicly.
We don’t need to twist things to oppose Trump. We just need to stand up against the actual policies he is attempting to enact or has enacted:
- Cutting Taxes for the Rich
- Working against Migrants
- Supporting Israel by:
-recognizing Jersualem as its capital
-supporting their drilling in the Golan
-supporting their massacre of Gaza
- Expaning the military
- Supporting pipelines
- Discrimination against Transgender folk
- Supporting a coup in Venezuela
- Moving towards war with Iran
- Arming Nazis in Ukraine
and many more I don’t have time to list.
One of the best commentary pieces I’ve seen in a long time. Cheers!
More of this defending trump against the very accurate charge of racism and lauding white supremacists? Proof? “A shocking fact check”? Hardly… At best a twisting of trumps original words, the overwhelming public response and timing of his mealy-mouthed reply to being cornered. A lie by the media just to “beat trump” ?
How is this merely a "Clintonian lie? There are many insightful people who see and read between trumps malignant words or some weak pablum “condemnation” of neo-nazis!
I wonder at your intent when his behaviors and agenda of bigotry, racism, and serving forces of fascism go far beyond some few tepid words, after rightly being called a racist bigot as he richly deserves and proves almost daily The white supremacist, neo-nazi march in Charlottesville and their murder of Heather Heyer only one example!
The charge is that trump equated the actions of the ne-nazi right with “very fine people” and if you can’t get beyond that truth to rail against those who see the wider implications of numerous racist acts, I wonder. Carrying water for trump and his MAGA morons is very problematic for me. Sorry
My time expired to edit this rant, but here it is anyway.
More of this defending trump against the very accurate charge of racism? Proof? “A shocking fact check”? Hardly, and so what?. At best a twisting of trumps actions and many other words and empowering of the right,
Yes trump said after the fact “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”
And: “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.” He said those words about Charlottesville, but his actions in many other policy areas belie those statements, most likely forced on him…None of his words exemplified as “proof” are translated into actions.
The charge is that trump equated the actions of the neo-nazi right et al with “very fine people” (on both sides) I think we need to see the wider implications of numerous racist acts and support by trump and his MAGA morons. They are not my focus, exposing his actions and agenda are…
What empowers the right is to spread lies that they know are lies, thus justifying their support of Trump. “I know Trump isn’t a racist because the Lib>bleep<s say he’s a racist because they say he said the Tiki Torch Neo-Nazis are fine people and he never said that. So they are just a bunch of liars and all they say is lies.” That’s how they see it. I know. I’ve asked them about that- asked Trump supporters that I know from our personal relationships are not racists. But they’re convinced it’s all lies that Trump has done racist things.
As long as we used false information we will never win them over. But part of the problem here is the demonization of the other side. To cultural liberals all Trump supporters are deplorable. To cultural conservatives all resisters of Trump’s agenda are lib>bleep<s.
If to those of us who resist Trump’s agenda all his supporters are just a bunch of deplorables, then there is no point in trying to win them over, there is no point in listening to them, there is no point in understanding what led them to support Trump. They are all just a bunch of racist, misogynists, who, at best, deserve to be written off, and, even worse, deserve to have us march into their faces and beat loud drums at them even though their kids and then spend days on social media talking about punching them in the face, or, at worst, actually tackling them as they walk across a part in a MAGA hat and trying to beat them up. (I saw counter protesters do that weeks after Charlottesville to a young teen boy whose only crime was walking across the park in a MAGA hat.)
This just leads to more and more hatred back and forth.
I am against hatred.
Not all Trump supporters are Nazis or KKK or White Supremacists, not even most of them.
After the fact in almost the same breath. Did you read what you’re responding to? Did you check out the raw video of the press conference? Did you see that Trump said it just a minute after he said the fine people quote? Did you watch the fine people quote in contex to see that his point was that not all the protestors of removing the Lee statue were Nazis? How can that be justifying the actions of the Tiki Nazis?
Are you aware he said that all on Monday? That his controversial statement that is taken out of context to make it appear to mean something he wasn’t saying was a day later? This was not ‘after the fact.’
So do the right thing and use those actions or other statements that do point to racism and white supremacy. If you are right, and I’m not saying you aren’t right, then there must be plenty of actions and statements you can use to show Trump is a racist. So you don’t have to use one that actually only can be used that way if it is misconstrued.
Why the need to misconstrue and/or being absolutely aghast at the pointing out that one statement actually didn’t really say what it was reported to have said? Shouldn’t we have plenty of ammunition to prove this? Shouldn’t we be able to say, “Oh, I got that wrong. But still there’s this and this and this…”
But instead you act like that someone pointing out the truth of what Trump actually said is ‘justifying his racism’ shown in other acts. No, it isn’t. It’s only saying this particular statement isn’t what we’ve been told it was.
Or maybe the issue is you don’t want to be woken to the fact that the anti-Trump press and politicians can be just as dishonest, just as sneaky, just as manipulative, just as willing to distorty and intentionally misconstrue in order to achieve their political ends?
Maybe that for you is like when a Fundamentalist Christian is show inconvertible proof that the Bible can’t be inerrant or that some of it’s claims just can’t be true? It’s a threat to an entire worldview that is foundational to their self understanding and purpose in life. So it creates a terrible gnawing horror inside.
I hope not. But I don’t understand why this reality of what Trump really said is so hard for you to accept. I don’t understand why you can’t accept actual hard facts.
Like Tom Coffey said, “You can still hate Trump. You can still think he’s a racist. You can still think he’s a terrible human being, you’re entitled to that. But no longer can you use this quote as evidence of it.” You’ll have to use the other actions you spoke of as evidence of it, okay?
And as I’ve proven, he did not do that on the days following the protest and counter protest at Charlottesville and the horrors that happened there done by the Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists and the murder done by one of them.
Well, not all of the MAGA wearing supporters of Trump are racist and doing overty racist acts.
But yes, we do need to respond to the wider implications of the actual racists acts Trump has and is doing, not only that, but his misogynist acts and Islamophobic acts and Homophobic acts and recently his Transphobic ones. I’d list them all here, but you know them. I’ll just mention two recent ones: denying Transgender folk health care and so mistreating refugees from Latin America seeking assylum that they die in custody. These are horrid and terrible and the reality that Trump did not equate the Neo-Nazi tiki torch bearers as just as fine people as all those oppoing them doesn’t change that, it doesn’t justify it, and it doesn’t minimize it.
My intent is we stand on truth instead of “our side vs your side, damn the truth.” My intent is we not demonize everyone on the other side. My intent is we stop being so swallowed up in hatred of Trump we think just blasting him is enough instead of opposing polices that hurt us, others outside our nation, and our entire planet. My intent is that we don’t fall into the trap of not getting upset when Democrats do the same things in a less brash, more eloquent Ivy League urbane way, with a little finess.
(These responses took a long time because in the middle of writing I got waylaid with lots of off line needs.)
Thanks for your patience on this. I am trying to grok the story and both your and Coffey’s responses to the issue you focus on, re Charlottesville. It appears there is some confusion on when trump said (or tweeted) what. and what his intent was.
Sure, my views on trump’s pathological contempt for truth, his acts of bigotry and racism figure strongly. I do believe in truth and not using false narratives to make a point, but there are questions of his intent and timeline in his comments re the Unite the Right rally, and defense of trumps words, timing and intent… You tell me your truth and I’ll tell you mine.
My initial comment after seeing Tom Coffey’s defense of trump posted again brought my negative response to defense of trumps words as being “fake news” from the “left” - that words he spoke were being falsified for political gain…
The second was toned-down but still overlooked your points - it appears many people also see different points of view on the controversy - I could not escape my contempt for trump, his Cabinet and appointees, and those that support him/them.
Your arguments against my response, I thank you for. Taking the time again.
There is a great difference between those who voted for trump (or didn’t vote at all) and his current daily MAGA supporters whose beliefs reflect a cemented vision of life, society, and politics, their respect for truth is non-existent, as is trumps, so to “win them over” is a fools errand.
[quote=“LibWingofLibWing, post:13, topic:63620”]
Not all Trump supporters are Nazis or KKK or White Supremacists, not even most of them.
Yes, many/some are social "conservatives, “religious” bigots, vulture capitalists, corporate banker Wall Street types, and others, including “haters” of various demographics. Will we “win them over” too by not “demonizing” trump on his responses to Charlottesville?
If you (and Coffey) really believe the UTR rally was about the Lee statue and trumps “fine people on both sides” comment was about them primarily we have a fundamental problem. I suggest you both review the timeline and trumps history before focusing on defending his words as “taken out of context” or being wrongly manipulated by the media and individuals.
trump saying “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides. On many sides.” were as disingenuous as his comments all thru those days designed to appeal to his “base” and soft-peddle the racist right - that is where the “lies” begin. IMO
I think both you and Coffey may have more productive things to write about than defending trumps behavior and “winning over” trump supporters with your version of the truth.
I don’t think critics take the “fine people” out of context, or misrepresenting what was said, but responding to the totality of what happened in Charlottesville and trumps responses to it. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.