How could there be capitalism not dependent on white-supremacy? It’s impossible, you’re all wet, and there’s no historical example of racism-free capitalism on-hand for you to cite. What are you doing, aside from proving yourself historically illiterate?
Easy, there are lots of countries that are not run by white people, at all. They have large groups of elites, who behave exactly the same, they have their own hierarchical structures, caste systems, racism, etc.
They often ignore their underprivileged or discriminated againast groups there.
Lots of ethnic groups around the world enslave other ethnic groups. Also, millions of people have been enslaved by means of debt.
There are more slaves around the world today in terms of numbers than there were 150 years ago.
You don’t even grok the concept of global capitalism? I don’t believe it. What planet are you from?
The word “slave” is basically the word “slav” meaning people from a group of ethnically and linguistically related peoples who now occupt Northern eurasia and scandinavia, including the “Rus” (Russia and Eastern Europe)
The standard price for a “slav” around 2000 years ago was a man size amphora of wine.
Large numbers of slavs toiled their entire lives in mines basically serving as pack animals manually operating primitive machines just like horses or oxen.
Also slavs were popular as harem slaves, notably in the Ottoman Empire (Turkey)
There are more slaves today then there were 200 years ago. Lots of supposeldy advanced countries, including India, North Korea, China and the US (in prisone) Mozambique, and many others, still have large numbers of people in what amounts to slavery.
Race is a fake issue the neolibs love to divert unhappy workers of all races and backgrounds from figuring out that all of their insecurity and lives are in constant danger and flux. This happens because of corporate ownership of capital . That power determines the quality of work, distribution of income and education, quality of the environment, housing, and the dangers of massive nuclear armed militaries.
Oh, I see. You’re one of those ignorami prone to primping peacock-feathers of psuedo-erudition.
Who knows why you are so dedicated to (lamely, counter-factually, absurdly) prying apart the ironclad attachment of capitalism to racism? Everyone has their quirks, I guess. Your quirk stinks a bit, in context – resembling racist obfuscation.
You would have to include practically every big box store, grocery chain, and retail outlet in existence. There are very few of them who pay their workers a living wage and treat them with dignity, Costco is the only one I can think of that is an exception.
It is not White Supremacy that is driving China, Japan and India. They are all Capitalist nations. 2 of them are the most populous nations in the world.
Capitalism certainly had its birthplace in Western Europe and one of the memes they used in Western Europe during the Colonial period (which has not truly ended) so as to entrench Capitalism , if not the single largest meme was and is racism. That said Capitalism exists outside of “white supremacy”.
This article is on China, describing how State Capitalism works there and it has nothing to do with White Supremacy.
The article describes how in China , just as in the Western nations, a small segment of the society is reaping all of the rewards while most of the working class barely make ends meet. Now the author certainly has a bias wherein he approaches his argument from the perspective that Western based Capitalism is somehow fairer and more Democratic , but a good many here understand that the issue is with Capitalism itself and not one of its “variants”.
As to India , they are also a Capitalist nation , but that Country divided up peoples into classes long before Capitalism arrived on the scene via the caste system, again a hierarchy where some deemed more worthy than others. The Shudras and Dalits were deemed “of lower class” and the Brahmins lorded over them. This system had its roots in religion and when the nation adopted Capitalism much of that belief system was just transferred over.
Youre right in one very big sense, the WTO and additional plague of western FTAs are very closely linked to COLONIALISM, because the ruling class in all the countries that rejected colonialism without having some kind of revolution in many cases IS STILL THE SAME PEOPLE. the same people who did the biddings, or rather should I say, kissed the asses of the colonial rulers and was never called to account. They are also the pseudo entitled elites around the world that ran up huge debts in the countries names in the name of supposed development projects and then flew the coop to tax havens, leaving those countries stuck with the bill. Now in a particularly twisted and perverse scam American middle class working people are being asked (or not being asked rather we dont have any choice nor do we even know, but jobs here are being traded away to undermine immigrants and Americans alike, and trade away those jobs to LIGARCHS, so they can be milked for profit, also propping up dictatorial regimes.
After training their replacements, our workers, the ones who held many a company up and saved them through self sacrifice will be “free to go”.
The same goes for our medical workers, IT workers and many other kinds of both skilled and unskilled workers.
The link is between this global churning of jobs and the repayment of the ODIOUS DEBT which really should be FORGIVEN but isnt being because to do so would also let the US taxpayer (as well as many other countries citizens who have been massively stolen from in these scams which occur with distressing regularity) off the hook for any future 2008 disasters, (which was an inside job, and caused by the GATS, something most people dont know- only Public Citizen has had the guts to point this out. Lori Wallach was great to get the WTO lying about this on video )
(h)ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru4TrbGjDF0 But she should have presented them with the proof that the GATS actually caused the 2008 crash which she kew was embedded on the very last page of an additional supplement to the second Specific Commiitments filing, obviously they wanted to hide it… Here it is, see the line that contains the promise to “reform” the Glass-Stegall Act in the next Congress? Its on one of the very last pages.
Imagine if the rich couldnt get out of stealing from the countries they controlled. Why they might have to work!
Instead, the people who had stolen money would likely be expected to pay it back, establishing a dangerous legal precedent where the rich would have to assume responsibility for crimes they had committed against countries. Obviously this could not be allowed to happen.
So to prop up the guilty and prevent much needed social change, You, yes you, the “overpaid” professional protectionists in America, must (be) sacrifice.
Its “for a cause” as they used to say.
Feeding the global corporations claws…
You also cannot grok the global nature of the capitalist system? You think China has nothing to do with global capitalism and racism? You are (uncharacteristically) not connecting the dots in this instance.
What about the planetary web of trade orgs, with their labyrinthine international institutionalization of capital uber alles? Is all of that similarly free of racist taint? (And what’s going on around here, anyhow?)
I am pointing out that Capitalism exists without White Supremacy. Capitalism does not need white supremacy in order to exist. Just like Socialism does not need people of Color in order to exist. Capitalism creates classes of people within a given society and creating those classes of people can be done and is done independently from whether or not White people exist inside of that society.
China as example can leave those international organizations but choose not to because belonging to them allows their own rich to prosper even more. China joined the WTO in 2001 . When China embraced State Capitalism , they started creating classes of people inside of China and you look at their historical wealth inequality charts that inequality started to grow after they embraced Capitalism.
The GINI in China grew from about .16 to close to .5 over this period. GINI does not count people overseas making more money in China. It measures rich people in China against poorer people in China and they do not have a white population.
Take "whites " out of the equation completely and Capitalism would still function in this manner. By its nature it favors one small group of people at the expense of all others.
The issue is CAPITALISM period and not “white Capitalism”. People of Color can not make that system work better because it a rotten system.
You’re just flat wrong about that, friend. You raise the possibility of some imaginary universe where capitalism might exist independently of white-supremacy. You are making no sense to me, all the sudden, as I’d rather talk about the actual physical world in which we live, not your meaningless abstraction.
Capitalism absolutely demands a ready supply of disposable people – which (considering that economists rarely consider themselves disposable) necessarily implies at least two qualities of people: those who matter, and those who don’t. Accidents of history have steered the necessary imbalance into specifically “white” supremacy. That, and only that, is the ideological cornerstone of global capitalism as it is.
Why bring up some imaginary, ahistorical trajectory of no relevance to anything?
Capitalism is defined as the means or production being in private hands in order for those individuals to generate profit. No where does the definition state that the means of production in “The hands of white supremacists”.
Capitalism has no redeeming features and what you are doing is trying to suggest that it can work if Whites removed from the equation which is simply false. It fails whether Japan embraces it, China embraces it or India embraces it. All your references to trade agreements are just red herrings. They are symptoms of Capitalism and not the cause.
As to disposable peoples the Capitalists in India have millions of people within that Country that they deem disposable. That’s how Capitalists view the world no matter their skin color.
Capitalists are Capitalists whether they come from India or Europe and the fact that a China or an India joins something like the WTO is because they feel it will benefit their own Capitalists and not because they are being forced to do so by whites.
Your suggestion that my statements are meaningless abstractions is simply because you are fixated on YOUR personal definition of what Capitalism is and not what it is defined as. That is YOUR failure and not mine.
This conversation is at an end.
I’m fixated on the actual, rather than theoretical, model of capitalism. You’ve got your head in the clouds, floating high above the historical development of global capitalism on Earth over centuries (as opposed to how economists portray it in their books).
Is “this conversation is at an end” supposed to discourage me from closing the point about your odd disengagement from history? (As if, nice try, and all that!) Read Gerald Horne’s The Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism, and then fill me in on the relevance of definitions, and academic musing on capitalism and white-supremacy. Truth resides on the ground, not up in the air.
Obligations will be met only if we play their game, which is a fools errand. Come the revolution, we can refuse their sputtering arguments for the bounty they expect, vis a vis these signed agreements. It all boils down to power.
Paraphrasing Andrew Jackson “The WTO has made their treaty, now let them enforce it”.
Which is to say, borrowing from Louie Armstrong, if I were King for a Day, and the WTO came calling for their treaty rights, I’d tell them to go f themselves. Which is further to say, the WTO will be crumpled up like so many pieces of paper, which is all it is anyway.
We made the treaty, we and the EU, Japan, UK, and big developing countries like India. They don’t want the democracy we havent had in decades, if that would mean they had to change, they want to lock us in to the for profit system forever. They want to outsource all the decent jobs they can, without giving away the family jewels.
On the other hand, they want people to think change is right around the corner. See, its working!
i’ve read that book as you know, and i agree with Suspira.
No one here is negating the historical development of capitalism, nor white supremacy. i don’t understand why you argue against something that is not being asserted. Yes in the historical development of colonization and capitalism, white supremacy was invented and deployed. That does not change the simple logical recognition that capital can operate without white supremacy.
Note my comment above to bardamu’s initial assertion, where i acknowledge the truth of the assertion that white supremacy is not required for a capitalist system to develop and operate, but i also insist that it must be simultaneously recognized that:
Capitalism is protean, deploying myriad divide-and-conquer ideologies to manipulate consciousness and culture to maintain hegemony. No single one of these ideological divide-and-conquer tools is literally necessary for the operation of capitalism. We must end both white supremacism and capitalism (among other omnicidal operating ideologies including human supremacism).
i’m not sure why these truths cannot coexist for you, they coexist perfectly well for me.
Well stated and your POV is much the same as mine on this matter.
I worked in contract situations a good part of my life. They tend to be undercompensated and to accompany situations in which work is demanded and no contract really applied. People work 4 official hours and 5 unofficial, for example.
Racism will tend to increase if income is made less equal. They have some level of interdependence in that the respond to each other. But they are not mutually dependent in the sense of being coterminous, in that they always correspond. There is always the corresponding problem; it is not always related to race per se and racial problems are not always related to White supremacy per se, though across the world of course they usually are because of the historical fact of empire.
It is surely because White supremacy has been so extensive and so virulent that populations can conflate racism with class oppression (racism is part of class oppression, not at all unrelated, but not identical; economically mediated class oppression is likewise part of class oppression).
Alcohol abuse, depression, child abandonment, prostitution, narcotics abuse, obesity, and apparently diabetes also respond to income differentials. Richard Wilkinson’s work over decades has documented this very well, and the correlation is overwhelming. But we would not say that diabetes depends on poverty or that poverty depends on diabetes.
It is probably worth mentioning regarding Wilkinson’s work, since no one seems to get it intuitively, that these changes impact the rich also, just not so much as the poor. That is, there is more child abandonment by the rich also when the poor are poorer.
In my experience, people come to the US because it is the hub of empire. A few of the motives that generates are touristic, but by far most are economic. People start raising coffee instead of corn and beans and squash then money is fast; then they have to follow the money back towards the hub of empire when money slows.
This determines immigration, and immigration laws largely do not, mostly because the empire makes and enormous profit from the immigrants, and does not wish to stop the flow, only to stop the workers from being fairly paid, so that they in turn can be used to bargain against local labor.
These contractors are vicious to their employees. I was extremely lucky when I have been working in research tech. I was a temp, but it was before the big flood of overseas temping companies (and I dont think they ever penetrated research like they did other areas, even now) , At first I was doing generic tech jobs, but gradually my Internet related skills grew more valuable, and I got involved with a much higher level of organization that treated their workers quite well. Even long after I worked in these settings I maintained friendships with some of my coworkers and still do. I really liked working in those settings. There weren’t the adversarial relationships I have gone though elsewhere. It just want that kind of workplace.
I have to say that in that particular niche during those years, as far as I could tell there was NO racism in our organization that I was aware of and I dont think there was any sexism or any sexual harassment or anything like that.
The people who were there were all consious that it was kind of a special place, but it didnt make them egotistical, quite the opposite, it made people want to share information with one another and make it so that everybodys projects succeeded.
Which is incredible now when I think about it. We also had people from all around the world, actually, all of the parts of Silicon Valley at that time that I was involved in, (pure science) was like that.
Incredible as it may sound now. Thats what gives me a lot of my courage now, knowing that facts are what is important. And that people can function at a very high level given the opportunity.
Thats the way the world of all work should be. People are treated with respect, they like their work. Its totally not for money, people do what they do because they want to advance the state of the art in something important. Ever person who is there is there because they are very good at what they do. And they try to do their jobs conscientiously and there is no reason to get angry and cynical.
“Your attitude determines your altitude”
You know the future could be like that, if we just let go of our fear. Most of what we are seeing now its the result of people pushing other people way beyond the limits of what should be done. Its done out of greed. GATS is really horrible, it has the potential to divide the world and even start WWIII.
This is what I mean. It takes some time to understand just how bad it is.
Maybe the reason I am so angry at it is because I see it as an existential threat to the positive future I want all of us, all our pnat to have.
Its ike The Empire Strikes Back… (not the movie, the concept)
Striking back against the future that I saw myself that smart peope could create, a non-hirarchical, extremely productive future and workplace, where all people were creative, and there wasnt any need to blow your own horn or use buzz words or any of that crap that plagues the tech world - which is all hype- to ‘be creative’ just isnt thought of people just are- it just couldnt be avoided being creative and having tons of ideas in that environment. And paradoxically, lots of those ideas are likely to make money. generate wealth. The thing is, they arent the end, they are the beginning, whats problematic is when companies like some I could name, build their companies on others work and ideas and then try to steal the credit and lock down the field so that others cant take that and build on it. Thats in a very great sense is what GATS is trying to do its trying to PREVENT GROWTH in every way. Its economic suicide.