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No, Warren and Sanders Are Not the Same

I’d rather be a Russian Agent that a corporate agent. Deflecting attention from corporate influence is the hallmark of any corporate politician. In this regard, HRC is a loyal corporate soldier to the death.

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Bernie argued for universal healthcare when he was a child. Universal healthcare is the backbone of any serious socialist/progressive and everyone in his family knows that. The fact that it took so long to sponsor HR 676, is just further proof of the stranglehold corporate America has on “our” government.

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Can you share with us the votes that we purity testers will hold against Bernie?

Thanks in advance.

Losing in 2016 wasn’t enough for Hillary.

She has to screw her party in 2020, too.

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Estimates are costs will go up 5.5 percent annually in the USA. Canada is showing an increase of around 4.2 percent annually.

While life expectancy has been dropping in the US it still climbs in Canada. All of this suggests that health care costs in both countries will continue to climb as persons age and has ever more technology adds to health care costs overall.

No matter what plan if any implemented in the USA and no matter what they do to tweak the system in Canada there has to be another evolution when it comes to looking at Health Care overall. Governments have to think of this holistically and address the causes of bad health rather then just the symptoms.

This starts with looking at things like how safe our environment is and how those chemicals and pollutants dumped into our ecosystems affect long term health. It includes looking at our food supply and how processed foods and additives put into our foods have long term consequences and costs. If a Monsanto is making the population ill with all the pesticides they produce then Monsanto should be paying for part of these costs. The system that allows for profits to be made by externalizing costs has to end.

They also have to look at ill health caused by stress and people working ever longer hours and not having any downtime to recover health and heal.

No matter the system implemented it behooves Governments that are worried about these costs and how they will only continue to climb to promote good health and start implementing policies that lead to that.

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Thank You------I support Warren because I think she can be better at messaging----and I don’t just mean this in running but also when she is elected. But at the same time if Bernie is the nominee I would support and vote for him just as I did in the 2016 election.

But NONE of this happens unless there is a real movement supporting these policies

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This is absolutely true, because most elected Democrats will oppose a wealth tax, GND, Medicare 4All, and other proposals Sanders and Warren put forth - no matter how popular those proposals are.

But Sanders has never suggested that he can get results all by himself. What he has done is use the bully pulpit, draw ideas from, and work with social movements like Occupy Wall Street, Fight for 15, and the Movement for Black Lives. He’s supported primaries against Democratic incumbents, and he has a massive network of young activists and supportive groups around the country that have been building since 2015. This is in pretty clear contrast to Warren who apparently thinks she can win over Congress by sheer force of her ideas.

I question Warren’s commitment to her proposals - most of which she has formulated in the last several months.

I question her strength as a candidate against Trump, because of her documented inconsistency and insincerity and also because she appeals mainly to educated white liberals.

I question the strength and viability of her proposals, because they are mostly means tested rather than universal:

I question Warren’s fitness as a world leader. She has said almost nothing about the relationship between the U.S. and the rest of the planet. She voted for a $700B military budget. That is obscene, in my view - there is absolutely no justification for it.

But all of my questioning aside, Sanders and Warren have very clearly different theories of change. Sanders is, frankly, more likely to get legislation passed than Warren is, because he and his supporters are already well aware that progressive social change can’t be achieved solely by one person with a plan.

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Just when it appeared she could not sink any lower she finds another sub level.

The reason she attacks any true progressives in the party is that she in fact sees eye to eye with Donald Trump .

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The fact that Sanders is drawing from all of those groups to help formulate his policies, demonstrates his humility and unlike the Politicians that promote the talking points of the health care industry or the banking industry or big oil , there no pay check in it for him when he listens to his constituency , the people.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ms. Kolhatkar!

What continues to astound me is that so many supposed progressives can’t see that Warren is a confirmed neoliberal in progressive clothing. The only thing progressive about her is the talk she talks. She will never walk the walk.

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They aren’t the same, but I’d vote for either one long before voting for Trump. I’d vote for Snoopy.

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While the confusion between the two is understandable given the progressive sounding talking points that Warren has picked up from Sanders, the substantive and defining difference between the two is fundamental yet significant.

Their foundational ideologies are worlds apart. Warren is, and proudly proclaims, a believer in the “free markets”. At a very fundamental level, she holds the position that the markets as they are work quiet well. All that is needed is a bit more regulation. She doesn’t see the need for any radical systemic change.

In short, she is at heart a neoliberal with a conscience. In this she is like Obama and she will lead as he did. In all of Obama’s policy proposals, as the true neoliberal that he is, he consistently insured first and foremost that the markets and profits would be protected. Being that he is a democrat not a republican, this fact was never explicit but was always implicitly understood. All of Warren’s current plans follow the same pattern and will take us down the same neoliberal trajectory.

In contrast, Sanders is not a free market economist. He does not believe that markets should be the driving force in policy. He is of the opinion that the free market system can exist but that it must be second to public need and interest. He is of the opinion that the current system is upside down and that the time for radical chance is NOW.

Warren is calling for market control through rules and regulations. Sanders is calling for re-making the whole economic and political system.

I’m of the opinion that we are at a point of no return. If we continue with the same neoliberal system that has a choke hold on our nation, democracy will be lost.

We can have neoliberalism as a foundational governing principle or we can have democracy as our foundational governing principle but we cannot have both. The time for a paradigm shift is now. Warren cannot bring such a shift because she sees no need for the shift.

If we are to move towards democracy rather than further down the neoliberal rabbit hole, we must have a Sanders at the head of the 2020 ticket.

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You can be very confident in Liz. There is no doubt that she will pull an Obama.

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Here’s a link to a substantive, interesting profile of Elizabeth Warren and her chances by Dutch researcher, writer and editor, Casper Thomas of the De Groene Amsterdammer magazine founded in 1877. Mr. Thomas works out of Washington D.C… One gets some real “eye-openers” of Elizabeth Warren’s American liberal-social minded character and strong precise ideas for serious change and cures - as opposed to claims, she’s a corporatist, a market capitalism advocate first, a Joe Doe working class advocate second; she’s anti-unions; she’s just another big money-oriented politician seeking out the monied donors; she’s not progressive enough, etc.

About all I can say is that I think we are very lucky to have two presidential candidates of the quality, government experience, and integrity of Bernie and Elizabeth. I don’t think either one has a monopoly on their committment and ability to improve the lot of “the little people” and to aggressively fix all that’s so profoundly broken, corrupt, unjust in our social, economic, political systems.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://www.groene.nl/artikel/de-prairie-kandidaat&prev=search
:
(Here’s link to Dutch language version published in the Netherlands)

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I agree with you for the most part, but I don’t see any possible future in neoliberalism. Neoliberal political rule isn’t the trend around the world and it hasn’t been the trend here. After Clinton we got Bush, and after Obama, we got someone even worse. The next neoliberal leader - if there is one - of the U.S. will be followed by a lurch into fascism.

The hard truth is that neoliberalism doesn’t even offer partial solutions to the climate crisis. It exacerbates economic inequality and political despair, hollowing out the middle class that is its sole constituency. Even to the extent - which is debatable - that Warren rejects neoliberalism, she wouldn’t have the political power or the movement support to resist the neoliberal direction of her own party.

You’re right. This is the point of return, and our only chance for progressive change is now.

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Below is a link to a primer on neoliberalism. Beginning with Raygun, every President since has been a neoliberal. Neoliberalism, no matter how it is dressed up has only one direction. Extreme fascism is the end result of neoliberalism. You are right there is no future in neoliberalism.

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Bernie is the ONLY truly progressive candidate running so far. He is the only declared Democrat I would consider voting for. I joined the Green Party in 2017, leaving the Democrats in disgust over the way Hillary treated Bernie, and will NEVER go back. Having lost our party status in Ohio after the 2018 election for not getting an outrageously large percentage of the gubernatorial vote, I am now officially an independent. I will be one proudly unless and until a truly progressive party is able to have a real chance of winning offices in my state and country. I’m not afraid to write-in a progressive name or leave the Presidency blank on my 2020 ballot. I refuse to bow to pressure to vote for any old hack I’m told to. If Bernie is cheated out of the nomination again, I want to burn the Democratic Party to the effing ground, because that is what they will deserve.

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The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was Dr. Warren’s baby from fertilization to birth (despite Biden’s claim). That was rather progressive. She’s been after the student loan farce since forever. She has been after the mortgage lenders since before Mr.Sanders first ran. She hasn’t given an inch despite some of the most vicious attacks by the banksters. There is a reason that Democratic donors on Wall St. have said that they’ll switch to Phat Boy if she is nominated. They never said that about Mr. Sanders.

I personally support Mr. Sanders, but it’s mainly because Dr. Warren has the expertise to do more good in her area if she were just left alone than Mr. Sanders does. Her level of expertise in her area (family financing), far exceeds anyone else, and she needs to dedicate herself to that area.

With a history like that, it is rather difficult to even imagine that somehow she’s a neoliberal.

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Proud Bernie Bro who voted for Warren twice as Senator. Anyone who fears the word socialism and declares themselves an ardent capitalist has a tough time getting my vote regardless of gender. I think the smartest move Liz could make right now is to point to Bernie’s Medicare for All plan and say, “What he said.” She doesn’t need to create her own, she doesn’t need to duck the question. Let’s be unified on that point.