Home | About | Donate

Ocasio-Cortez Not Phased by Can 'Democratic Socialism' and 'Capitalism' Coexist Question

#22

Well played :joy:

#23

Septic Tank is more like it. We already have Democratic Socialism for corporations, and also false Patriots don’t have to serve in the military.

2 Likes
#24

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Ron.

#25

I recently commented on a post on my congressional rep’s Facebook page, urging him to support single payer. I received a reply (not from him or staff) which started out calling my post “nonsense,” and proof of the “failure of the educational system.” Is this the person you hope to reach by explaining the “bad” of capitalism?

PS: I think the word you’re looking for is “vein.”

#26

You didn’t read her statement, using and emphasizing the word " but ", as in the context of " we will see " or " to be determined " by the future actions of the progressives within the Democratic Party.
The term " ultimate sheepherder " is premature, to say the least. Coming from your prospective on progressives, it’s not unexpected, however. In case you haven’t noticed we are now being governed by a minority of voters. Through an antiquated and seemingly useless Constitutional framework. There are currently more elected Democrats in Congress by a margin of +5%, yet little will change until the 2020 election cycle. Add in the fact that the Senate has states like Wyoming, S. Dakota and N. Dakota whose entire populations could almost be housed in a city the size of Portland, Oregon and certainly in a city the size of Denver, Colorado. And, this was by design, not a haphazard act of physical and natural geographic limitation. The hangover and disfigurement of Congressional corruption, slavery and indigenous genocide still haunts us in large and disturbing ways.
The late John Dingell pointed out after this latest election cycle that the best way to solve much of our misgoverning governernment’s problems is simply to disband the Senate. I would say either that, or, expand the Senate to more fully represent all the people in a given and drawn boundary. So what if 750, 000 people in some shithole state like Wyoming are upset. There’s about 38 million people in California who’d like nothing better than to give the Cheney family to Canada.
So, your anger may be righteous but directing it at A O-C seems off the mark by a considerable distance. Better to target the real problems, including the chant, " no majority representation equals unfair legislation ", or something along those lines. Just sayin’.

2 Likes
#28

I read those two gentleman regularly. I think it’s you who might need to get out more. Or, maybe get out of Ohio. Which is managed by a bunch of folks who’d be very comfortable lounging around an Ohio State alumni association postgame tailgate party in KKK outfits. Just sayin’.
BTW- I just finished reading Mr. Street’s column. It was spot on. Thanks.

2 Likes
#29

You are correct for maybe 50% of population but not the rest of us and those 50% have been educated to not talk politics or religion, they both rule are life so what a stupid thing to say and I get sick of it. These people are programmed to shop.

#30

Capitalism isn’t a sustainable economic system. It is a system that does not function well in the absence of growth, and there are limits to growth in throughput and pollution generation, which we are reaching. There is no way capitalism can operate in a no growth environment. There is also lots of information missing in markets, so to the extent that markets are used, they will necessarily misallocate resources. AOC gave a brief interview with NPR and touched on it, even used the word externalities. There is also no realistic way to deal with the environmental crisis without some form of planning, which used to be a feature of socialist economic systems. Still used in China and there is still some planning in social democratic countries like Sweden. The planning should be highly democratic, like Swedish social democracy, but there will be planning. Countries that don’t plan will not function well. So, capitalism doesn’t have tons more time. If it does, then things will collapse in the coming decades. The question is what type of post-capitalist system there will be. Will it be a democratic form of socialism, or a brutal, hierarchical feudal type of system, what Peter Frase calls “exterminism”? Pretending that we can hold on to capitalism and deal with the environmental crisis is naïve.

Chuck Todd is less than worthless too. The rat did a recent segment on his program. He said, this segment is brought to you by Boeing, then launched into an attack on Bernie, who is a critic of Boeing.

6 Likes
#31

I think people tend to equate some form of markets and private businesses with “capitalism”. These people seem to not realize that there is something called market socialism, and models developed by people like Oskar Lange use markets and have a role for private businesses (although the businesses are often assumed to be largely worker run and owned). Lange said that capitalism could exist to an extent in regards to small businesses and some of the agricultural sector. Market socialist models though do often have some role for markets and private enterprise, although market socialists also acknowledged that there were things like non-market impacts. Lange, in fact, said that a socialist system would better account for those non-market impacts and he used markets in radically different ways than what we see in capitalism.

4 Likes
#32

Thanks, Joan. Your points are as cogent as ever. I wasn’t advocating for capitalism. I was more pointing out that what’s on offer differs little from the Keynesian capitalism of the nearly departed, old New Deal, and that all the media-proffered, GOP chicken-little-ing about socialists coming to render us into insects has blown it out of proportion while wildly obfuscating. As a result, the Kochs can whip people into such confusion that they vote against their own interests.

I’m past that point, personally. I would say more bluntly, “Pretending we can deal with the environmental crisis is naïve.” But if I start spewing my bleak, environmental pessimism, I’ll bum everyone out, especially myself. No use in that.

3 Likes
#35

DC has already embraced socialism for the banksters and govt emp;oyees

#36

You should worry about lots of things, appparently. First is getting a job, then making enough money to buy a tin-foil hat with a magic wand to accompany the camoflaged outfit. Do they make tin-foil berets? Just wondering?
And, you’re such jerk, you didn’t mention that Mr. Street used Ohio as a classic example of a racist state of the first order. And you still can’t figure out the differing governing approaches of a Gov. Corday vs a Gov. DeWine. What a piece of work you are. Ohio may be perfect for you, afterall.
Additionally, Mr. Street and I were pretty much on the same page in our assessment of the problems. He’s even living in the state I cut my teeth on in politics for over 3 decades and even hanging out in the same city ( for over 2 decades ) where I received some of my formal political education. That’s ancient history now, but the current topic of your day is that you’re still a card-carrying idiot, pretty much.
Who says " toodles " btw, dude? Are you confusing 2019 with 1919? That could explain a lot of things, I guess.
Well then, this is where you pucker up and I point to what you can kiss.

#37

Actually MSN calls it as it is:

In an intervew with NPR she responded to this question:
"“Are you prepared to put on that table that, 'Yes actually they’re right, what this requires is massive government intervention?’”

Ocasio-Cortez responded: “It does, it does, yeah, I have no problem saying that. Why? Because we have tried their approach for 40 years. For 40 years we have tried to let the private sector take care of this. They said, ‘We got this, we can do this, the forces of the market are going to force us to innovate.’ Except for the fact that there’s a little thing in economics called externalities. And what that means is that a corporation can dump pollution in the river and they don’t have to pay, but taxpayers have to pay.”"

In the Chuck Todd interview she said:

““I think one way that the right does try to mischaracterize, uh, what we’re doing as though it’s, like, some kind of massive government takeover,” Ocasio-Cortez told Todd. “Obviously, it’s not that, because what we’re trying to do is release the investments from the federal government to mobilize those resources across the country.””

#38

It’s the Star Trek generation so maybe the writer was talking about AOC not being stunned by Captain Kirk.

#39

Several of the nation’s founders, if they were following the comments to this article, would consider your statement libelous. Particularly John Adams and his cousin Samuel. John Adams (and Thomas Jefferson, a hypocrite) advocated for condemning slavery in the Declaration of Independence, and put up with seeing it struck out, in order to get South Carolina’s Edward Rutledge and other slave colonies ‘on board’. He predicted, much like Lincoln, that the nation could not continue half slave, half free.

If we consider a functioning stock market as a necessary but not a sufficient condition for a capitalist system, then the USA has had that since at least the 1780s, quite a long sustained time for an unsustainable system.

As for growth vs. no-growth, Britain was in a comparative no-growth situation for a long time after WWII, and its capitalism bounced back from the Attlee Labour economic controls 1945-1952 and continued to exist through the comparative no-growth until Margaret Thatcher freed Britain to grow again.

The USA, as one example, functioned rather well without planning in its first 80 years.


A question: ¿Where does the ‘green’ of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s favorite project, a ‘Green New Deal’, come from. I can’t imagine it coming from socialism, or even democratic socialism, because workers think of a job at a fair wage first, by quite a distance.

I am suspecting it is because the leaders of Democrat Socialism have allied themselves with (privileged, elitist) Environmentalists that they have adopted green planks to their platform.

#40

Maybe “awaken” would be better than “educate”? I know far too many educated people who don’t own their own brains due to ideological indoctrination. The elites may be the worst in this regard. We laugh at people supporting policies that are actually against their own interests, but there is always some chance they may awaken. However, waking up is much harder for those who actually benefit from the cruelties of the status quo which is, of course, why they invented the guillotine.

1 Like
#41

She is absolutely right. Forcing corporations to account for the externalities of environmental degradation and human exploitation would change things for the better very quickly. Neoliberal capitalism is, first and foremost, about exploitation of just about everything–internalizing profits and externalizing costs. It’s fundamentally unsustainable.

2 Likes
#42

sorry you get a down vote! just yoking!

1 Like
#43

Reminds me of a joke from the old socialist country a long, long time ago:
“Capitalism is at the edge of the abyss”
“What’s it doing there?”
“Looking down at us.”

1 Like
#44

Oh, my! You need to buy a stamp like mine! 2” by 4” with a red ink pad…the word the stamp stamps is BULLSHIT. I got it precisely so I could stamp the inane and/or condescending response letters I get from congresscreeps and postal-mail the letter back to them.
Best present I ever got!

1 Like