Whew!!!!! I mean, darn!!!!!
First, I wasn't talking about the Democrats, I was talking about the Left. I don't really see much of a connection between the two. That said, I urged everyone to vote for Clinton and still think that we'd be better off had she won (the judiciary, in particular, wouldn't be as bad). The sad reality is that there were two choices, Trump or Clinton. That had nothing at all to do with fighting fascism except in the sense that Trump was way, way, WAY worse on the issue.
Second, yes, people have liked many leftist ideas for a couple of decades now (at least, I'm just going on the polling I've seen over the last twenty years). But here's another sad reality: people don't generally vote for ideas. They vote for people. Had Obama been able to run again, I think he'd have won, and if Sanders had challenged him he wouldn't have done very well, because Obama had high positive numbers. He did well against HRC. Some were inspired by his ideas, but most just liked him. I know a Republican woman who hated Clinton but loved Bernie. She even voluteered for him. The exact same policies, coming from someone else, wouldn't move her at all. I suggest that she's not unique in the least. I truly believe that she's the standard. It's what psychologists tell us--people are more impressed with a good story than with facts. It took me a long, long time to realize that I was an outlier, because I prefer facts. That led to many frustrating converations until, finally, I understood that people just don't care about such things. Far better to get them angry about something than convince them of the rightness of your position.
Which leads me to fascism: Trump is a symptom, sure, but he makes people angry, and that's something that can be used (and IS being used by march organizers). (Also, it might be good to consider how the far right has been so very successful at creating so very many "symptoms." That's what I mean about organizing.)
What you're talking about is a single instance. Trump beat a deeply flawed candidate. What I was talking about is why Trump was the alternative. Why was a guy who was the darling of the KKK the alternative? Because fascists organize. They support each other. They share a common enemy, and that's something the Left doesn't stress at all, prefering to snipe at each other over obscure points of ideology or condemn one another because of a disagreement on one issue. That way lies defeat, and considering the Left has had no power in the USA since the early Seventies, defeat is all two generations of Americans know.
The psychedelic drug called Trumpeachment-Blotter has a certain chicken all worked up and confused on strategy. Apparently, dropping a hit or two makes you feel pence and love.
Oh go cluck yourself jerk.
Joan, this person is a perfect example of the alt-left I'm talking about, who for months and months and months supported Trump.
And still does support Trump, "but doesn't".
Yes on the transparency. I could see through her decades ago. And true, she has the character of any bottomfeeder in DC. I wish someone could fill in the cesspool on top of the whole bunch of them. Maybe then, we could plant a garden.
How bizarre, you make me out to be a supporter for Pence, when you have supported Trump for months, as he has beaten up on Women,Blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, LGBTQ community, and the rest.
You are a dishonest snake.
Pence the Pious lied about being lied to by Flynn. He lead the "transition team" pre and post inauguration and knew fully well what Flynn had been up to since being ousted by President Obama. He lied about the Comey firing. His penchant for prevarication is not at all stifled by his evangelical fervor.
I don't agree at all. For one, people don't vote because of particular ideas. This last election saw the lowest turnout in 20 years and the 2014 election saw the lowest turnout in the post WWII era. Beyond that, it would be one thing if the ideas of the left were presented and people didn't respond. That isn't the case, at least not any time recently. Their choices have been a continuation of policies that have made things increasingly worse at a moderate pace, or a further deepening of those policies, which speeds up things getting progressively worse. This is why you see such low turnout, it is why people are angry at the system and it is why there are now far more people that don't identify with either party than those that do. You telling me that if there was a candidate that was serious about pushing for single payer and universal and publicly funded college, among other things, that people wouldn't vote? I don't see that at all, but those ideas won't be offered by either party because that would force them to challenge their top donors. It also seems that the politician this last election that DID do those things is the most popular politician in the country, by a mile.
"people are more impressed with a good story than with facts."
The polls show that people care deeply about policy and people's stances on the issues are well to the left of government policy. There are many studies showing that our democracy is really an oligarchy and that popular opinion and government policy are far apart. The rich simply get what they want. Neither party pushes for those policies and both are controlled by their top donors. A large percentage of people don't vote, and Trump enters office with support from about 25% of the voting age population.
"Why was a guy who was the darling of the KKK the alternative?"
Because people are spitting mad at the system. Things have gotten progressively worse for working people and they know it, they live with that every day, and every other Republican in the race wanted to continue on with the status quo. He didn't, as Michael Moore said, he was a Molotov cocktail, and so was Le Pen in France, and the Golden Dawn in Greece, and Jobbik in Hungary.
Keep this in mind: According to recent polls, more Republicans support single payer than oppose single payer, by about 12%, yet the Democrats can't even be bothered to get behind the damn idea. So, you don't offer policies people want and see them either not vote in response or vote on other issues. To me, this whole thing is pretty straight forward.
Haven't a clue whether that is true or not. I do know that he or she isn't a person on the left simply because they say they are and I also know that it is an extreme minority, if what you are saying is true.
I'm done, it's Friday and screw this.
We don't actually disagree on much here, but it sounds like you think it's a waste of time/energy going after Trump. I don't. Just the opposite, I think it's vital precisely because I agree with you that Pence is just as bad (well, almost as bad, the craven need for approval Trump displays makes him more dangerous, I think). This isn't the final battle for Truth and Justice, just another round in a never-ending fight, but fight we must.
Well, as the left could be deemed as generally supporting ideals of an equitable society, justice, and peace then I would say that person is not on the left.
At best, they are lost in the wilderness of what I have termed the "alt-left", who at every turn for months before, and in the months after the fascist Trump was elected have at the very least consistently dismissed criticisms of Trump, or engaged in arguments asserting that he was anti-establishment, ant-Wall Street, a true populist, and the rest.
What you have missed this? The endless assertions that Trump was a bulwark against US hegemony, was hated by Wall Street, was anti-Establishment, and the rest?
You missed the arguments for Trump positioned from a supposedly leftist perspective?
I envy you. I wish I would have been oblivious to this, just from a standpoint of not having to beat my head up against that wall of insanity.
For what it is worth, enjoy your Weekend.
This notion that Pence could not possibly be damaged by impeachment is just bizarre.
Delightful that we are always faced with choosing between the two evils.
I guess that's a small price to pay for our Exceptionalism.
Your positioning yourself here as some sort of example of civility is a joke.
Care to do a score card of personal insults?
As to your deep personal insult, regarding my mental stability.
Go cluck yourself jerk.
And I beg you, please don't waste any more of your time on me, except of course the time well spent reading my comments.
Russian mafia. The succession of presidency is vice-president, Speaker of the House, Senate pro-tem; Pence, Ryan, McConnel. Meddling in elections got George Bush elected in 2000 when Broward County quit counting. Half America supports Trump because half America would sell their Mom for a buffet coupon. Trump is a fraud. His university is a fraud. Trump has been used by the Russian mafia because they can leverage him somehow. Most insane are his lieutenants he has dispatched to destroy Justice, EPA, Education, Interior, FCC, SEC, etcetera. Like Pac-Man, we sit helplessly watching these parasitic mutants eat our government and society until we can pull the plug. Fight!
Agreed, Pence is MUCH scarier than Trump, because Pence will be much more successful at getting terrible legislation passed.
I hate to have to agree with Trump, but Comey IS a "nut job."
Why do we need to have either, or any member of TRump's administration/junta at all? First- IMPEACH TRump in our House of Representatives. Then of course, Mueller continues his thing and all is revealed! Voila!
It is bizarre. The entire party, not just this administration, would be damaged since they've enabled Trump. And now there are tapes and leaks, like with Ryan yesterday (two days ago? It's been a heavy news week). Democrats will certainly use that in campaigns, I think. I would.
How many degrees of separation are there between Russian organized crime and the Russian gov't, though? From the time of the fall of the Soviet Union, when huge swaths of the economy were privatized at fire sale prices, the corruption in Russia has been profound.
I don't think we're helpless, though. The protests have been effective. I truly don't think that things would be moving quite this fast if they hadn't taken place (though faster than usual, perhaps, because of Trump's own ham-handed efforts to...protect himself? Not sure what his plan is here).