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We Must Apply Our Universal Values to All Nations. Only Then Will We Achieve Peace.


My standard response to that is: They’re going call you “apologists for dictators” and “Putin puppets” anyway. And in Omar’s case, they’ve labeled her as anti-semitic, no matter what she says.


I agree with you. But politicians do have to work in the system.

We, on the other hand, we work outside the system and we can be as honest, loud, and radical as we want.

Maduro is a good guy.

The Islamic Revolution in Iran was a good thing and Iran is a much freer country than Saudi Arabia.

Israel, as a state for Jews only, has no right to exist.

Putin is not evil but has several times worked to keep the USA out of war.

Hillary Clinton is a blood thirsty war monger who would cut Social Security or privatize it if she was in power if her foreign policy hadn’t already turn the nation into nuclear rubble.

Beto O’Rourke is an empty suit and the only reason he’s where he is is because he’s a rich white boy whose Daddy used class and white privilege to bail him out of trouble over and over and put him in politics. He’s a NeoLiberal version of George W. Bush.

Cory Booker is a paid stooge of Wall Street.

Kamala Harris is evil- see her record as SF DA and CA AG.

Joe Biden is a dirty old man creep.

Elizabeth Warren is white Obama in a skirt.

We can’t have the kind of social democracy that Bernie Sanders wants unless we cut off the MIC from the tap.

We don’t need better border security- we need to open the borders for whoever wants to move here permanently or temporarily. But we do need to stop subverting the economies of our southern neighbors and empowering vicious, fascist dictatorship in the name of ‘Democracy.’

We need to legalize all drugs and stop funding prisons and instead fund treatment. All drug convictions should be pardoned.

We need to outlaw burning fossil fuels as soon as possible.

Russia didn’t interfere with our elections and therefore Trump didn’t collude with Russia for them to do that because there was nothing to collude about. But Clinton and the DNC did steal the nomination from Bernie- including flipping outcomes on Super Tuesday in precincts without verifiable paper trails, which if that hadn’t happened would have put him in the lead at the Convention.

THERE- I can speak the truth. I can be radical. I will do it and I will never shut up until I’m dead or unable to speak.

All who attack me as an Assad Apologist or a Communist or a Putin Puppet will get the same back in kind as I attack them as CIA Stooges or Deep State Lackeys or David Brock paid trolls until they stop with the ad hominem attacks and actually engage in a discussion of the issue.


Preach, yo.


Papa Fred disowned Fred Jr as insufficiently ruthless, passing the torch to darling Donald.


Trump doesn’t. He speaks his mind, as screwed up as it is.

I wish someone of the Progressive Left spoke up like he does. Why does the Left always have to cower to the Right? The Right doesn’t cower to the Left. Quite the opposite.

People on the Left are waiting for such a person to appear on the national stage; calling it like it is.


HI mephewsam: if we had a Congress full of people like Rep. Omar—what a wonderful America it would be! : )


HI nephewsam; Sorry for the misspelling of nephew… I have a unique skill of seeing spelling errors only after words have been published. : 0


You made 15 points. I’m with you mostly on 11 of them. The ones I’d push back on are:

Maduro is their guy and I don’t have any interest in vilifying him and don’t want our politicians doing that either, but calling him a ‘good’ guy seems to be going too far. He may be good in the sense that his heart is in the right place, but he doesn’t appear to be a good leader or know how to run an economy or surround himself with people who do. I am aware of all the impediments he faces, but I still trust people like Mark Weisbrot and when he says:

The economy has shrunk by a record 50 percent in the last five years, and inflation is over a million percent annually. It’s a record-breaking depression combined with hyperinflation, and it’s mostly the fault of the current government.

then I have serious doubts that they have the best government that they can have - still it’s up to them to sort it out, not us. Omar doesn’t say anything that anti-Maduro here and I’m not aware of other problematic statements. All countries have human rights issues and I’m sure Venezuela has them as do we.

Iran is a much freer country than Saudi Arabia and I support the Iran Deal and think we should have cooperated with them more on the Afghan and Iraq wars (I didn’t want either of them, especially not the latter, but given we were there and benefiting Iran by getting rid of two of their thorns, they would have been interested). But I can’t call the Islamic Revolution a good thing either. Leftist or other secular resistance to the shah lost out after the revolution, that’s for sure. Some of them were killed, but getting an absolute accounting of government killings from 1953-1979 and 1979-now is going to be impossible. I hear a lot of stories from different friends and family (I’m 1/2 Iranian) and I’m not going to believe anything automatically, but I’ve heard enough to be pretty damn confident that what Iran had pre 1953 in terms of structure was better. We majorly fucked things up there and I don’t know when they will ever recover.

Elizabeth Warren is considerably better than Obama. @JoanRobinson has written a couple times on Warren’s positive contributions to discussion and policy with respect to the US economy. Would Obama ever let the threat of nationalizing an industry (a drug company not willing to toe the line under a progressive administration)? No way. She is a reasonable supporter of Medicare for All (perhaps not quite as good as some, but better than Beto, Obama, and many others). Her foreign policy is nothing to write home about - she may be just as bad as Obama there, but hopefully she can be pushed.

I can’t go for open borders - I’ve discussed this on other threads so I’ll leave it at that. Any candidate that pushes for open borders is absolutely out of their mind - it is not a winning political issue. Compassionate, practical, reform is fine (getting rid of ICE even could probably be sold to the electorate), but no way is an open border candidate going anywhere.

Go Ilhan!

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Send all the psychopaths in leadership positions to a penal colony on the Moon. Good riddance all. They won’t be allowed to contact peaceful Earthlings either whether people or non-human people.


My only quibble is the totally open border. Stopping the violence exported to the south results in massive migrations to escape the violence spread by the CIA for overthrowing soverign govt’s. Easier to obtain work VISA’s and lessening penalties for expired ones would certainly help. I think some people smarter that me could solve most of the issues at the border. A wall is and would be an ecological nightmare.


Insightful. I found the following article to be rather illuminating on the subject.



Trump seems to speak his mind, but what he really is doing is speaking what the Right Wing Radiosphere has made the system. Does he really speak his mind? Does he really agree with everything on Brietbart and Rush and Levine? Or does he just play the right wing game? So he’s bombastic. Sheesh. Bombastic has been the norm in right wing radio and even some TV on FOX for a long, long time.

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Thank you for the link. Have not read much of it yet, but it is a most interesting read so far.


I agree that Maduro has not handled things well. But then I don’t know who could have.

You see it’s not the fault of the current government. It’s the fault of the oligarchs intentionally creating shortages and of Saudi Arabia increasing their production of oil so much the price fell out (on direction from the US) and the sanctions that started with Obama.

A leftist and socialist revolution would have been better. But the revolution that did occur is much more democratic than we in the West want to admit and ended one of the most oppressive regimes in that part of the world and ended the resources of Iran being the spoils of the West. Plus, because of the revolution, the Palestinians have had about their only ally in the world.

Warren hasn’t done a single thing that wasn’t right out of Obama’s playbook. Her signature accomplishment was all part of Obama’s “Let’s have a kinder gentler NeoLiberalism.”

I don’t see much space between her and Obama. If she becomes president I wouldn’t be surprised at all if her cabinet had the same kind of NeoLiberal and NeoCon types as Obama’s: Hillary Goddamn Clinton, Eric Holder, Timothy Geithner, and Arne Duncan. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if she recycled the exact same folk.

The hope and trust you have in Warren sounds very much like what a lot of us had in Obama in 2007 and 2008.

Yes, perhaps. (Remember I started this particular discussion by pointing out the different roles of politicians and activists like me.)

But you said you disagreed with me on these. So where do you stand, since you aren’t running for president and don’t need to not take a position that is so against the zeitgeist it would send you to Coventry? Are you a Thom Hartman “I’m against immigrants because I’m progressive” progressive?

Or are you like me an advocate for the human right of people being able to live where they wish as long as they are peaceful and don’t think that also means stealing people’s land when they move in?

Are you like me a believer that immigration actually pumps up the economy because immigrants not only become part of the labor pool, but also become part of the consuming public? If this anti-immigrant thinking of some liberals was accurate, then we’d expect places with large populations to always have poorer economies than places with much smaller populations. The worst economy in the nation would just always have to be the metropolitan New York City region.

By the way, thanks for the nice discussion. :slight_smile:

By open borders I mean like the way they were from 1890 to 1920 but without the discrimination. Anyone who wanted to could immigrate (except the groups discriminated against) as long as they weren’t criminals or had a dangerous, communicative disease. I love the culture of America this produced.

Basically it means no quotas, which had always existed against the discriminated groups and after 1920 became just part of the system for everyone.

Oh, thanks to you too for a nice discussion! :slight_smile:


She also writes and communicates in the “American” English language better than at least half of all people born here.


Superb, thanks for the link!


MMK, i often shrink when i read some of your posts, but imo, ya done real good today. civil discussion with excellent points… and i should admit that they fit my schemas!!! :slight_smile:

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Absolutely superb! Thanks, Gary.

The linked article at the Kosmos website is among the most concise, comprehensive, holistic, compassionate assessments that i have been privileged to read, assessing the historical process of development of a diseased human consciousness and culture, that has ultimately emerged today into the omnicidal assault against all ecology and humanity that is occurring.

This kind of holistic assessment is sorely needed if we are to have any realistic hope of addressing, and turning aside from, this path of omnicidal, ego-driven, viral consciousness and culture that consumes us, through which we consume ourselves and nature.

Brilliant grasp by the authors, a crystalline explanatory construct that honors life and humanity and ecology against the historical narrative of accelerating horror that has unfolded for several thousands of years now. This is why this is a hopeful essay as well, offering some basic tools that are required to understand how to counter this.

Huge props to the authors Alnoor Ladha and Martin Kirk. Anyone who sometimes likes or respects my comments in these threads, please read the essay linked in vonMeisenbug’s comment above.

And at this point i’m just a third of the way through the essay!


I agree completely with the author as to our Government’s need to apply “our universal values to all nations, friends and foes” – but with one basic caveat: Our US Government needs to apply “our” universal values to OUR nation, first of all. For the past many decades (if not always) our US Government – whether under Democratic or Republican Administrations and/or Congresses – has almost invariably asserted a US “exceptionalism” which allows our Government to ignore international legal commitments and norms (such as the UN Charter’s ban on the use or threat of military force against another nation, excepting only in response to an actual or imminent attack; or the Nuremburg Principles outlawing offensive war as “the suprecume war crime”) which our Government insists all other nations are bound to obey. Unless and until this US “exceptionalism” doctrine is discarded, there is no realistic chance that we will achieve peace.

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I was about to write a similar post, then I read yours. It’s all that I wanted to say, and you said it better. Right on.

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