Outrage at President Trump’s behavior and policies is already leading to speculation over whether he will manage to complete his term of office. Speculation over how he might fall is a favorite after-dinner topic. Impeachment, criminal conviction, removal by the Cabinet, resignation, secret coup by deep state intelligence officers — all figure in the guessing game. As Trump intensifies his embrace of foreign tyrants and domestic plutocrats, these guesses take on an aspect of hope. For the growing number of Americans who abhor Trump, the prospect of being rid of him is thrilling.
I happen to agree that Trump needs to ride out his term. As horrible as that idea is, the damage he can do (and will attempt) is staggering to consider but Pence as President would be far worse, He knows what he’s doing and what he wants, and is no fool. Trump could destroy the RP where Pence might be able to give it new life, and that would be bad for all of us since the RP no longer has many interest in us Americans aside from the wealthy and the corporate overlords. Voters need to get so fed-up with both parties (they are with the DP), they really create a substantial movement to take back our govt. and get rid of all those career professional politicians who have been in office far too long.
Oh, yes, right, of course; the “American people” need more shocks, more shock troops . . . maybe the shock absorbers are broken . . .
The “American people” elected Trump? As I recall, the other candidate received three million more votes than the Lord of Lago got.
“A full term for Trump will mean Four Years of Pain for Millions of Americans…Four More Years of Spectacular Profit for the Richest 1%…Four Years of Blundering Around the World…at the Cost of Many Lives.”
Just like Obama.
Just like W.
Just like Bill.
Just like Poppy.
Trump has the D establishment all worked up and wide awake and full of sound and fury.
Yet, when the Blue half of the duopoly takes charge, their loyal pragmatist cult falls back to slumber and worries less about the continued slide into oligarchy because ‘Obama’s got this.’
On a brighter note, I was at a dinner party last night where I heard 3 millenials in agreement about totally side-stepping the Ds. That soul-less brand is dying on the vine. Which creates fertile ground for replacements to fill the void.
This article is wrong in many ways. He argues from all the mythical new-new-left memes - that Trump had some kind of leftist populist message in his campaign and the “elites” hated and feared Trump. Why then, did that great elite barometer called the “stock markets” skyrocket the day after the election - and again after the inauguration? He argues for total resignation at the current awful US congress, rather than changing it in 2018 and 2020. (Resistance to the spooky elites is futile!) And finally, he seems to advocate ignoring rule of law. Thump should be removed for violating the law through unconstitutional business activity (“emolluments”) from the White House. No other reason is needed.
And also if Mr. Kinzer is arguing for a strategy at all, he is presenting a not-so subtle argument for the historically failed “sharpen the contradictions” strategy - i…e encourage conditions for the working class to become even more horrible and intolerable, and The Revolution will magically come from heaven like Jesus on his second coming. Bullshit!
This NY Times reporter is blithely telling to ignore the rule of law, to excuse corruption and blatant economic self interest/conflict of interest and just let’s gamble the farm on a role of the dice. Try this on for size >>> Mussolini is so bad that he should remain in office to shock the Italian people so that magically they will all become liberals and vote in a radical saint next time around?
Bullsh*t!!! We are already shocked more than enough and there is no guarantee that awakening of liberal thought would occur after a four year term for Trump! Look at all the damage this man and his family and the minions can do! Like the other Republicans would all be quiet and immobile during that time? No way! They would have had four years without any check on their agenda. Think of the decisions Trump/Repubs will make and the damage that they can do!
Why do people think that if Trump is impeached that somehow this won’t negatively reflect on the Republicans and Pence? If Trump is impeached the Republican controlled assault on our democracy takes a serious hit! Were Trump to be impeached it would not be business as usual or that it would be like nothing had happened except that Pence would take over? What kind of logic is that? Business as usual? Yeah sure it would!
If Trump is impeached the republicans will need to worry about a total rout the next election. They will lose seats in Congress etc because an impeachment is a repudiation of both Trump and the Republican agenda. Talk about a negative image for a party and impeachment pretty much covers it. To not impeach Trump allows the Repubs to get away with what they are doing because then it would be like nothing happened to them despite their egregious anti-democracy politics. If you want to strike a telling blow to the Republican agenda and The chances of the Repubs maintaining their control of our government then here is the most telling of blows available. The impeachment of the Republican leader is not insignificant! To not impeach Trump is also to allow him to do as much damage as possible.
Impeachment will wake up Americans to the fact that the Republicans are not invincible and the rule of law and our constitution is viable in America. People who say Trump should continue doing the damage that he is doing (and that no check be put on the Republican agenda) are fools. Ask yourself as to what about what Trump is doing that you abhor and then ask yourself whether it makes sense to let him keep doing it for a full four year term?
Impeach Trump and it becomes a rejection of the Republican agenda!
I agree that in some ways Pence is worse, but the growing risk of even more war with Trump’s ignorant, inconsistent and downright baffling foreign policy more than justifies getting rid of him, now. The man is dangerous and even some within his own party know he is in way over his head.
However, the fate of Trump and the Republicans is more likely to ride on the 2018 elections than any attempt to impeach. Unfortunately, the Democrats still stubbornly cling to being a stale and rotting alternative with no legislative agenda and the odds of the party reforming itself are even less than getting Trump impeached. Unless Trump commits an obvious criminal act, it’s likely we’ll be stuck with him in 2020 and beyond.
I happen to fully agree with Mr. Kinzer. To those of us who are gleeful at the prospect of an Impeachment, I say be careful what you wish for!
THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES
Mr. Kinzer, “You can fool some of the people some of the time; but…”
When I read nonsense such as your article, I sometimes wonder whether the intent is, in part, to elicit responses that can later be used in white papers and speeches, depending upon whether they are pro or con a given agenda.
I am not even going to waste my time attempting to dissect and refute each of you argument’s patently fallacious premises. For it is intuitively obvious that you use rhetorical devices to convince unsuspecting sheeple that your dogma and logic is indeed sound. Whereas it ought to be intuitively obvious to most relatively informed people that you are merely throwing crap at the wall, then sitting back snugl— with a false sense of accomplishment—to see just what sticks. Your argument’s use of circular reasoning, slippery slope as well as strawman fallacies is most contemptible and laughable.
Surely the citizens of the United States neither need nor deserve the inevitable socio-economic shock-and-awe campaign; nor is there a dearth of competent individuals who could easily and overwhelmingly outperform the current POTUS. Your “tough-love” rationale the quintessential specious argument regarding his competency and" legitimacy."
That said, if you had any, I would add, “Shame on you!”
Sometimes, when I read articles as absurd as yours, I wonder if a major intent is to elicit responses which may prove to be later used (e.g., in white papers or speeches), as grounds to substantiate or refute a given agenda or point of view.
I have to say this could be the stupidest article I have ever read by a writer from the left of center. Kinzer doesn’t seem to understand that Trump is a threat to democracy itself. Mike Pence is a strong defender of the free press. Trump declares the press an enemy of the people. Mike Pence is probably not the most truthful politician but Trump is engaged in trying make the truth irrelevant which is how to destroy democracy which depends on debating true facts. As the NY Times documented yesterday Trump lies in public on most days and he put out lies almost everyday in the weeks after he took office. Moreover he does not seem to be governing for the interest of the country but for himself and his family. I think Pence would govern for the interest of the US although I strongly disagree with most of his views. But at least the disagreements could be argued in a democratic setting. There are several reasons why Trump should be impeached. The sooner he is removed from office the better.
Well stated. Especially the last word.
I like Kinzer usually (a few articles and interviews on Fresh Air - I haven’t read his books), but I feel that his method of talking about the future is way too confident here. The future is less predictable now than it ever was and I can see things going both ways - better for the US and the World if Trump is booted out now (though that seems impossible without big Republican losses in 2018), or better if Pence never gets his hand on the highest office. Given this unpredictability, shouldn’t we just take a measured path forward (much as Tulsi Gabbard argued about Syria and chemical weapons): keep investigating and making the case and when and if it becomes feasible to impeach, we decide then (and all we can do is pester our representatives - they get to make the decision).
Of course a huge point that needs to be made every time this topic comes up is that we can’t let it suck all the oxygen out of the room. We need to move the democratic party towards more progressive position, we need to discuss particular policy nightmares (EPA, Yemen, etc.), Medicare for all etc. There is a huge risk that all this hubub about impeachment now is a huge distraction. I’d rather we spend the next year getting better candidates than always talking about Russia. If any particular media (e.g. MSNBC, Pod Save America, and many others) is going to spend all its time on impeachment strategy now, then I’m done with them and would rather listen to the Real News Network or Jimmy Dore.
Replacing Trump with Pence would change nothing in the Repug strategy. Pence would sign every piece sh!t the Repugs put on his desk, just like Traump.
The real damage is not being done by Trump, but by the “deconstructing” staff (and de-staffing) Repugs and/or Bannon told Trump to nominate.
All of those de (con) structors would remain in place under Pence, so the oligarchy/Repug strategy would continue unabated, unchallenged, esp by the 5-4 oligarchy SCOTUS.
Pence would also nominate the same extreme rightwing jurists to 100+ Federal judgeships.
Just as it was necessary to push out members of trcky Dick’s inner circle (including VP Agnew) prior to pushing Nixon out in 1974, Pence and other members of Trump’s inner circle need to be pushed out ASAP. Keeping up the impeachment noise against Trump but putting most of the effort against the inner circle is key.
The prospect of a President Pence for ten years, that is, the two remaining years of Trump’s term, and two probable terms of his own, is scary, very scary. Im at an age wherein tossing decades around like frisbees won’t wash. Just me.
AMEN!! As I’ve said many times before to those advocating a successful impeachment, “Be careful what you wish for!” Mike Pence would provide a stable and coherent executive branch, vastly better equipped than that of Tweetle-Dumb to undo the progress of the past 80 years.
[quote=“CommonDreams, post:1, topic:42739”]"Those who want to see Trump’s policies made permanent have an interest in easing him aside. The ascension of figures like Pence and Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, who exemplify the [korporate] ethos of robbing the poor to help the rich, would lessen the risk that those policies could be reversed after the next election. Using tools from judicial appointments to gerrymandering to voter suppression, a new group of leaders in Washington could establish a form of hegemony unique in our history. "[/quote] Why would the 5:4
conservative right-wing majority on SCOTUS agree to hear an appeal of a recent ruling that overturned gerrymandering if not to overturn the overturn, and allow the RePooplicans to continue to draw district boundaries that give them a lock on the House of Representatives? And just how much attention will any complaints of voter suppression get from the Department of Justice under A.G. Sessions?? Although the current chaos in the White House is providing a bit of cover for RePooplican villainy, it is also impeding much of their agenda as outrage over Tweetle-Dumb’s antics has inspired a resistance that a dullard like Mike Pence never could – even if he wanted to!
So go ahead and push for Mueller’s team to continue their surveillance of the Trump family businesses, as shining a strong light on them may minimize the damage they do. But don’t root for Trumpty-Dumpty to fall,
as that will only give the swamp creatures he has turned loose in Washington even greater power.
People vote the economy. The economy has been in a very slow upswing for nearly a decade. That slowness could mean that we will have a continued upward movement for quite some time. Perhaps enough time to re-elect republicans and Trump. The Senate version of healthcare reform keeps most of the pain in the distant future. The American citizenry is a disappointing bunch. Predicting our political future seems like a fool’s game.
People say Pence would be scary which might very well be true but Trump is already scary and horrible and incompetent and looking to go to war and…well there is a list of reasons why Trump is the worst!
How people can act like just because a republican like Pence becomes president that it will be the end of the world is beyond me. Would he be another Bush/Cheney? Or another Reagan even? The world doesn’t end just because a republican takes office.
However…there is the case of Trump, a republican who is also far and away the worst calamity to ever have occupied the Oval Office. Yes Trump is also a republican but a rogue - a non politician who slipped into office almost like it was a mistake and is exploiting that very powerful office for personal gain and is capable of triggering horrendous events out of corruption and incompetence.
In short - Trump is the worst. He is corrupt, conniving, cynical, pychopathically devoid of empathy and extraordinarily bad as a diplomat and world leader. Pence is just another creepy conservative Republican. Even if Pence were as bad as Reagan, at least he would be fairly normal - just Republican! Trump isn’t normal and is a error in judgement because of the potential instability of his thinking and utterly unsuitable to be president.
Trump is the worst possible (autocratic and perhaps potentially worse) and will do whatever Pence would do plus a whole lot of things Pence probably wouldn’t do.
Yes, the country is not exactly overpopulated with political geniuses, nor with agricultural geniuses either for that matter.
According to Rick Steelhammer writing for the Charleston Gazette Mail:
"A survey commissioned by the Innovation Center for U.S. Dairy generated a fair amount of ink and air time late last week, partially because it involved a rare poll that had nothing to do with politics, but mainly because it showed how appallingly far removed from the farm some Americans have become.
“Highlighting the new low point in agricultural literacy was the fact that seven percent of American adults believe chocolate milk comes from brown cows, according to the survey. That works out to more than 16 million of our full-grown fellow Americans believing that a sweetened, chocolate-flavored beverage can be coaxed from the udders of cows with brown hides once they are attached to milking machines.”