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'You Have a Choice': Veterans Call On Drone Operators to Refuse Orders


#1


#2

All war is failure, the rest is just details.


#3

The Nuremberg Trials condemned Nazi officials accused of mass murder whose defense was that they were simply carrying out orders. Drone operators should take heed.


#4

A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders.

Lets look at this in the real world. It is completely wrong to put this burden on the recipient of an order to determine if it is lawful or unlawful. That means every enlisted person would have to know everything in the laws about this and I don't think any one can memorize the complete Uniform Code of Military Justice. They have much more on their mines like staying alive. If the GI guesses wrong they can be put to death. The ones that give the unlawful order should be the ones that get charged, punished, raked over the coals and not the ones that obeyed the order.

The way it is now it takes all the responsibility of that order off of the ones that did it and puts it on the recipient which makes them a fall guy for what the higher up in the chain of command should be responsible for.

The military is notorious for doing this.


#7

The Unlawful Order.

Boy this one is going to come home to roost one day.

The Synthesis of World Law at the Hague will evolve.
The Kissinger's and Cheney's that have wrought war with impunity will be
the ultimate cause of the united opposition.

War cannot go on when it is truly perceived. Hence the media blinders needed to operate
under the "National Security" LIE. Don't show those coffins.

We all have the same choice, and it is splitting us apart.
The PTSD sets in when the mind finally perceives the truth that the heart cannot forgive. I own this truth now.

With today's enhanced resolution, Ignorance is swiftly dissipated or it it chosen as a haven, like the Ostrich with it's head in the sand. The refusal to acknowledge. Wave that flag, distract the mind. Overwhelm with emotion. Enlist here..... my boy.

There is another way...and it is each our choice.


#9

Hi ErnieJ.
(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I took this oath in 1964. I at no time was told it was my obligation to disobey orders I deemed as unlawful.
I would not have known there was such a thing as an unlawful order. I could have been screwed if I did it or didn't do it. I still say that the ones that gave that unlawful order should be responsible for the out come,


#11

Hi Nicholas You seem to have dropt the topic.

Your view about the rebellion of the military in the Vietnam war is completely wrong. Those you call heroes Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I suppose in your world that the draft card burners, the cowards that hid in Canada, the war protesters and the Hippies that called the police "pigs", The civilians that shouted Baby killers and a host of other demeaning names to the G.I's returning from doing their patriotic duty are all heros.
The American people lost that war. Not the ones fighting it nor the over that gave their lives to serve this country. When the citizens of this country showed they had no regard for the ones that were getting killed. That Nicholas broke the morale, the fighting spirit of the ones that were doing their duty.
you can parys who ever you want. I prays the names of the 58,286 names on the black wall of the Vietnam Memorial.


#13

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#14

Soldiers have a duty to disobey all unlawful orders:

http://www.omjp.org/ArtLarryDisobey.html


#15

Nicholas;
"Unfortunately your nearly incoherent post simply cannot disguise the fact that there is absolutely no compelling reason whatsoever why military personnel should somehow be lauded as being heroes."

Disguise? Fact? I made no attempt to disguise anything and what you call a fact is just your opinion and nothing more. There is an absolute compelling reason to call military personnel heros. They answer the call and do what is needed and serve this country and some pay the ultimate price = heros.

Nicholas;
"despite the fact that I would be wearing a VVAW button, I would ask them why I should be thanked for contributing to the deaths of many innocent Vietnamese.
Whenever people feel the bizarre need to, as that knee jerk, patriotic cliche states, thank me for my service"

Here is the simple answer to that simple question. Well I suppose that you should not be thanked for anything then.
I never expected to be thanked for my service for the simple reason that at the time I served every citizen had a six year obligation to serve the United States. I chose four years active duty and two years inactive reserve.

Nicholas;
"But instead of replying to my question all I would ever receive from them are blank stares. If there were foreign soldiers occupying this country would you then thank them for their service? It is extremely doubtful if you would do that just as it is rather unlikely that you will ever answer that simple question.

Yes I would thank them for their service if we had ask them for help.

Nicholas;
"Like so many flag waving Americans you opt for the easy way out by looking at this through the eyes of an American."

The easy way out? The easy way out was to hide in Canada.
Well excuuuuse meeeeee I am an american and use to be proud but Bush/Cheney took my pride away.

Nicholas;
"But unlike you I, because of my PTSD, look at U.S. imperialism through the eyes of a Vietnamese."

Which Vietnamese? The ones that ask for help or the communist ones.
Tell me Hero, the korean war was much like vietnam......trying to stop the communist north from overrunning the south just like vietnam. So would you say that south Korea is better off than the communist north? Did the robots in that war take the easy way out also?


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#23

Nicholas, I answered your questions that you said I wouldn't so how about answer my question; The Korean War was much like Vietnam......trying to stop the communist north from overrunning the south just like vietnam. So would you say that south Korea is better off than the communist north? Did the robots in that war take the easy way out also? (thanks for the heads up about capitalizing) did it make you feel superior and give your ego the boost it needs?

Nicholas:
"This is yet another example of one of your bizarre comments as I hardly consider myself a hero"

These quotes below are yours right? (some of them I shorted up) Then you do consider yourself as a hero.

"despite the fact that I would be wearing a VVAW button"

"The true heroes of this country are those individuals who belong to the VVAW [Vietnam Veterans Against the War."

" Those who belong to the VVAW and the IVAW should certainly be considered heroes"
Now is it bizarre that I thought you would include yourself in this group. You are a member right.ou

"I also have no idea how Bush and Cheney took your pride away unless it has something to do with their being chickenhawks."

I have no idea what a chickenhawk is, no matter, On to Bush/Cheney you must be a republican.
When I was reading up on Eisenhower his speeches and quotes was exactly what I thought about my country
should be and stand for in the eyes of the world. something to be proud of, really proud.
My America would not torture POWs. My America would never invade a smaller country. My America is the champion of human rights. My America would not trade with a country that did not have them.

DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
"I have one yardstick by which I test every major problem - and that yardstick is: Is it good for America"?

”Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history."
“We will never be the aggressor."

"All who work to produce should share equitably in the fruits of their labor."

“Any nation’s attempt to dictate to other nations their form of government is indefensible.”

“I believe the only way to protect own rights is to protect the rights of others.”

“I deeply believe that one of the supreme hopes for the world’s destiny lies in the American community: in its moral values, in its sense of order and decency, in its cooperative spirit.”

“We want to improve and expand our social security program.”

“We believe that every nation has a right to live its own life.”

“America believes in, and practices, fair play, and decency and justice.”

“We are dedicated to the building of a cooperative peace, based on truth, justice, and fairness.”

Now if you are talk about a situation like the My Lai massacre, where the village was completely different
than they were told full of women, children and the elderly an obvious mistake.Then yes disobey the orders and go home.


#26

Nicholas;
"And once again you overlook the fact that the United States had no business waging war against a country which, like Vietnam, never posed a threat to the most powerful country on earth.And as maxbeaverbrook points out, that conflict, like Vietnam, was conducted for very dubious reasons."

maxbeaverbrook Is a person's name and it is two names first and last Max Beaverbrook and should be capitalized Max Beaverbrook.
I never point out mistakes like this because everyone makes them even you. But you do it to make someone look uneducated and inferior to you. To support your arrogance and your over inflated ego. So lets stop the personal attacks.

The united states was sent into this Korean conflict by the United Nations and all the members countries except Russia.
So yes the united states was commissioned to liberate the South Koreans from the communist North Koreans that was backed by the Russians and later on when China became a communist country they joined with Russia. So your FACT is not a fact and I'm not the one that overlooked anything.
Stopping communism was a high priority in 50's and 60's and if communistes got a foothold in a country even a small country It would spread out to neighboring countries. If you haven't noticed every country is joined together,what affects one will affect every one of them. Let's say you get an infection on your big toe. Do you just ignore it and let it fester and your immune system can not kill it on it's own or would you get help in the form of antibiotics to rid this from your body? The United Nations sent them the antibiotics in the form ot the United state military. They did not eradicate it but contained it. Do you know that the communist North are still killing South Koreans and if given the chance some American G.I.s. Tell me what dubious reasons are you claiming?

Nicholas;
"As to my being a "hero" as I have tried to point out to you, apparently to no avail, I find nothing heroic in having belonged to an organization which killed many innocent people overseas for no justifiable reason whatsoever. But members of the VVAW can certainly be considered heroic when they protested against that idiotic war while many, like myself when I was in the military, remained silent about what the U.S. was doing to the Vietnamese."

And as I have pointed out as to the reasons I had figured you would have included yourself in this hero calling.
To no avail. Being all of the members must have done the same as you did in order to join the group. What makes them more special than you are? They too must have been a member of that same organization and done everything that you did. In every war that there has ever been innocent people have been killed, maimed and suffered. For you to carry all of this gilt on your shoulders is not right it is just a fact of war.
Did all of the members start speaking out against the war before being discharged or did they wait like you did? If not how did they qualify as a Vietnam Veteran?

As for me thinking of you as a republican is because they have forgotten what Bush/Cheney did to this country. Here is a quote from a republican candidate running to be president.

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) blasted his Democratic colleagues in the Senate on Thursday, telling reporters,
“I’m sick and tired of people blaming George W. Bush for things he did.”

When you could not figure out why I said Bush /Cheney took my pride from me. I figured you had forgotten all the crape they had done to this country.

Nicholas;
"It is rather baffling why you would think that I am somehow a Republican given the fact I am, unlike Bush and Cheney, fervently anti-war. It is also odd that while you appear to agree that America should never invade a smaller country you seem to have no problem with the United States invading countries like North Korea and Vietnam."

OK you are not like them but can not see why their administration could take away my pride that I felt for my country. OK where do I start? How about starting two wars that they blatantly lied about the reasons They invaded a country that had no ties with any terrorist. At peace for 12 years and the United Nations inspectors could not find any weapons of mass destruction. They invaded the country of Iraq any way. Then the terrorist came in for one reason that was to kill Americans.

Now Afghanistan the reason for this war was to find the terrorist Osama Bin laden, Two weeks after the start of this war Bush said' "We are no longer concerned about him." WTF.
To fund these two was he borrows 5 trillion dollars from a county that has been our enemy since 1948, a communist country with no human rights and allows the first born if not the gender the family wanted to be drowned in a bucket of water!!!!!!! WTF. Torturing People that have never been arrested or charged with a crime and no trial. My belief in this county championing human rights all over the world is gone and with all of this my pride of being a citizen of this country has been destroyed.
I could go on but if you don't get it by now there is no hope.

Nicholas;
"It is also odd that while you appear to agree that America should never invade a smaller country you seem to have no problem with the United States invading countries like North Korea and Vietnam."

That is correct my America would never be the aggressor and would never invade a smaller country.
I'm trying my damndest to explain to you that we did not invade either of these two countries country. I have dealt with Korea all ready .So on to Vietnam.

It is not an invasion when the country has ask for the intervention of the other country in this case the United States.
Here is that request:
In 1961, South Vietnam signed a military and economic aid treaty with the United States leading to the arrival (1961) of U.S. support troops and the formation (1962) of the U.S. Military Assistance Command.http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/vietnam-war-us-involvement.html You can believe it or not I don't really care.
Now for the American imperialism If US troops lingered on too long in the Philippines, it was to protect the Filipinos from European predators waiting in the wings for American withdrawal and to tutor them in American-style democracy. In the Philippines, the US followed its usual pattern:

"the United States would set up a constabulary, a quasi-military police force led by Americans and made up of local enlisted men. Then the Americans would work with local officials to administer a variety of public services, from vaccinations and schools to tax collection. American officials, though often resented, usually proved more efficient and less venal than their native predecessors…. Holding fair elections became a top priority because once a democratically elected government was installed, the Americans felt they could withdraw."

"The United States was least likely to intervene in those nations (such as Argentina and Costa Rica) where American investors held the biggest stakes. The longest occupations were undertaken in precisely those countries—Nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic—where the United States had the smallest economic stakes…. Unlike the Dutch in the East Indies, the British in Malaya, or the French in Indochina, the Americans left virtually no legacy of economic exploitation.

Does this sound like an imperialist country. Leaving the country better off than when they got there.
I have never been a Chickenhawk. and I was not in favor of the war in Vietnam. But I will never blame the ones fighting it. I will never call them robots because they were doing their job. If all you read and all you look for are the bad things that is what you will find.
try this as you say it may widen your horizon.http://www.legion.org/magazine/213233/why-we-went-war-vietnam

I'm done and I wish you well.
One more thing that may help you,http://olive-drab.com/od_history_vietnam_atrocities.php


#27

... while preparing for Church this past Sunday (June 21), I heard what I thought was a plane, flying over my home. This was about 9:35 am (EST). Exactly 1 hour later, the same 'plane' did a fly-over again - this time practically over the roof-tops of a distinctly residential area of the N.E. side Grand Rapids, MI (in the specific neighborhood of Leonard & Carlton streets). Similarly, on June 16 of this year, 'drones' stalked me from 28th st & Kalamazoo (5:52pm), to the downtown area of Michigan & Lafayette streets (10:08 pm), to Michigan & College Ave (10:15 pm). Each incident found these 'drones' directly overhead (which GPS & radar can easily verify), so there was no mistaking them for random airplanes doing traffic reports! Readers of my blog (rustacus21@wordpress.com) are very familiar w/my constant 'reporting' over being 'surveilled,' for absolutely no reason. I'm a male of color, no criminal record, God-fearing, Church-going, but under INTENSE surveillance, b/c of my blogging activities of the last 5 years. In that time, I've been unable to find steady work, finish my degree (a Bachelors in - U guessed it - 'Liberal' Studies, w/a Minor in - little wonder - Environmental Studies, in preparation for Law school, to become a DESPERATELY NEEDED Environmental attorney) or maintaining a safe, secure residence. W/in the last month, I've received emails from the FBI, re: my anonymous 'alter-ego' (that I created, to protect my 'PRIVACY' against such unwarranted intrusions as THIS) of which a foreign email, promising to wire me several million dollars 'mysteriously' arrived at my in-box, from Nigeria. As desperately impoverished as I've been these last 3 years, no amount of money is worth the jail time that a response would guarantee (for receiving monies from - no doubt - some terrorist network or organization, where the funds presumably originated). Obviously, being crime-free my entire life, paranoid elements in the law enforcement 'underworld' are hell-bent are making me so. This seems all so outlandish, I find it hard to believe myself but, by the Grace of God, I'm pushing ahead. I say all this to speak to the 'drone' operators who, locally, know EXACTLY who I am. Now that U know the actual story, that U are party to disrupting - illegally & w/out cause or warrant - the life of an ordinary, law-abiding, innocent American, U can do the right thing & help end what equates to madness, in exposing YOUR innocent fellow citizens, to the authoritarian, USSR-esque terror-society that created the 'Russia' we know today. The 'America' of tomorrow is, therefore, up to you NOW...